Hello,
This question will be cross-posted in the Pronto, Pronto NG, and the Pros forum...

Denon posted the new discretes for the XM tuner and zone 3 that are 48 bit codes. The traditional 15 bit codes can be keyed into one of the many HEX creators here and elsewhere, but the length of this code will not allow us to find a suitable converter...

Here is the PDF of the protocol:
[Link: usa.denon.com]

We have called Eric Johnson at URC, Damon at ProRemotes, and the guys at RTI... We are all stumped here and looking for a solution.

Any ideas??

You might have tried a forum search before blasting out multiple copies of an already answered question.

These Denon signals have been discussed at length in a few forums.

I didn't check the PDF you linked, but in the previous ones, Denon made a significant error so you couldn't use the 48 bits as they documented them. But with a little experimentation we figured it out anyway.

The correct 48 bit protocol is a pretty basic implimentation of the Kaseikyo standard (so all the threads on this subject should mention Kaseikyo as well as Denon).

The signals can be converted to Pronto Hex using the MakeHex program as described in some of those other threads.


I'm quite surprised none of those people thought to do a forum search here and find the answer.

First, thanks for your reply...


Second, I don't know why you assumed I DIDN'T search... You may be able to tell be my post count that I spend a significant amount of time here as well...

I have located them now, but without the terms "Denon-K" or "Kaseiyko" which were not familiar to me, my searches for "48 bit", and "Denon 48 bit" buried the useful 5805 thread in with a lot of threads that don't apply to anything...


Have these been saved and uploaded in the .ccf, .pcf, or URC files??


If this was the utility we tried, it didn't seem to work... I need to double check that this was the same conversion utility that we were trying...


I will make sure the correct info is forwarded to the appropriate parties. This will come up.

Thanks again...

Sorry. I didn't guess that the plausible searches would do that badly and I thought (though I might be misremembering) that the Denon pdf's mentioned the important keyword "kaseikyo".


The main thread on the subject just said there was a .pcf

As described there, to make a ccf with MakeHex and Irpanels, you'd need to fudge the command numbers because Irpanels is picky about command numbers.

There is always the tedious way to make a ccf with ProntoEdit and copy/paste from the MakeHex output.

To make URC files, I don't know a better way than universal browser from a ccf.


A few people have reported to me that the MakeHex generated Pronto Hex for Denon Kaseikyo has worked. If you have trouble with MakeHex, ask for more help. If necessary, I probably can find time to use the universal browser, an MX850 and an IR decoder to directly test whether there are any specific universal browser bugs affecting this protocol (though that seems unlikely since Denon Kaseikyo is so similar to the common Panasonic protocol).

2nd rick,

I just did a search in this forum for the last 6 months with the following keywords:

+Denon +48 +bit

with the set of keywords specifying that I want threads with Denon, 48, and bit versus a fixed string of "Denon 48 bit" as you specified above and got exactly 3 hits, including the one for the Denon 5805 thread to which I pointed you in the NG forum.

Here's a link to search tips for this site. This may help in the future.

[Link: remotecentral.com]

Specifically, the tips to maximize searches points out the use of + and - to require or prohibit terms.

Lyndel

Thanks for defending me, but I didn't really see what he said as "bashing" and I hoped the fight (if there was one) had already ended and we were back to being constructive.

Hopefully your post will be read mainly as constructive suggestions on how to get more from search.

For my part, I wouldn't have landed so hard on the lack of searching if the question had been posted in just one place. The experts who know the answers read most of those places so asking in any one place is enough. Future users who find the question by a search may get the wrong impression from multiple threads where it wasn't answered and fail to see the one where it was.

Sorry, my searches were for "48 bit", "48 bit hex", and "hex converter". Now that I am searching for the correct terms, the searches are bearing more fruit.

Lyndel, thanks for the link to the search hints, I was not aware that +& - were so useful. Each forum software is different, and this one is vastly different than most of the others I visit frequently as far as tags are concerned.

John, as far as a "fight"... I think that Mr. McGee was defending your honor, although it really wasn't required because there was absolutely no malice or animosity in my posts...

You may have noticed that I started and ended my reply by thanking you (John) for your reply and assistance.

If I can remove the additional posts, I will... If not, I will link them to this one and the other kaseikyo & 5805 threads so future searchers will not stumble across empty threads.

Now back to the issue at hand...
We have tried the IRpanels utility, and it replies with "error code 5" when we attempted to create hex from the data shown for the FM or XM commands directly out of the Denon document.

I have been reading some of John's posts about re-calculating the parity bytes, and we will now try some of the suggestions there.

We have AVR-4806 & AVR-3806 available to test, and a TSU-7500, URC MX-850 & MX-3000, UREI Nevo, and all of the RTI remotes to test with...

We are attempting to get all of these codes deciphered, tested, and included in the respective databases soon...

If anyone has tested codes converted to Pronto style Hex, please post or e-mail them.

I can't tell from your post whether you've tried MakeHex (with the .irp file given in that other thread).

With MakeHex, it should be easy to produce all the Denon Kaseikyo signals you might want.

You don't need to worry about the parity rules. I needed to understand those in order to write them into that .irp file. But that is already done, so you can use MakeHex and the parity will be automatic.

If we're talking about the same Irpanels program, I don't know how any data direct from the Denon document could be used. Irpanels needs Pronto Hex as input and it needs Pronto Hex labeled with device and function numbers in a narrower range than are correct for this protocol. One could edit the .irp file to shift the range of numbers in the labels to be offset from the true numbers in the commands. Then IrPanels could be used for a decent size chunk of the commands at a time (though not for the full range of command numbers at once).

But if you know how to use ProntoEdit, I think you should start with direct copy/paste of a few Pronto Hex strings one at a time from MakeHex output to ProntoEdit and through the universal browser etc. to make sure you have other aspects correct before editing an irp file for intentionally wrong function number labels and messing with other complications of IrPanels.

I've hit this issue with IRPanels before as well and it just plain "sucks".

Unfortunately, the source code for IRPanels is not available, otherwise, I would have fixed this problem a long time ago. It seems that IR Panels either has a problem with the length of the IR Data for a particular function or the code name itself.

The Runtime Error 5 is an overflow error from Visual Basic but I have not been able to ascertain exactly why the problem occurs.

The problem may indeed be due to the format of the header that is put before the IR Data. In any case, I wish the source code were available as I've hit this problem before as well.

Lyndel

I finally clicked on the pdf for AVR3806 above, and realized we're only talking about a few functions (unlike the other models where this topic came up).

The Kaseikyo section of that pdf has only eleven commands in it and seven of those match the same named commands in the AVR-5805.

The only 3806 commands that aren't in the 5805 list are:

DIRECT/STEREO
0000 0070 0000 0032 0080 0040 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0ACE
BAND FM
0000 0070 0000 0032 0080 0040 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0ACE
BAND AM
0000 0070 0000 0032 0080 0040 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0ACE
BAND XM
0000 0070 0000 0032 0080 0040 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0030 0010 0ACE

I also noticed that the pdf file is much more readable than the others, but the Parity info is still wrong.

I also tried copy/paste of commands 0 through 255 from the MakeHex output into Irpanels. It correctly produced a CCF file. Some Pronto hex strings confuse IrPanels, but these don't.

Of course 0 through 255 only includes real commands 153, 154 and 155 (The three BAND commands). The rest of the commands from this pdf have function numbers above 255.

The only simple way I can think of to use Irpanels would get only a few useful commands in each CCF file.

For example, here is an irp file version that produces 256 commands with their numbers offset by 200 (so it covers command 200 named "0" through command 455 named "255").

Device=4.1
Function=0..255
Define Y=F+200
Frequency=37000
Time Base=432
Zero=1,-1
One=1,-3
Prefix=8,-4
Default S=0
Define C=(D*16)^S^(Y*16)^(Y:8:4)
Suffix=1,-173
Form=;*,84:8,50:8,0:4,D:4,S:4,Y:12,C:8,_

You could use that to make a CCF and then pull the commands:

292 User1
293 User2
294 User3
305 Direct/Stereo

from buttons 92, 93, 94 and 105.

Then you might edit the offset to be
Define Y=F+600
and make a second CCF, so you could pull

621 Audio Delay up
622 Audio Delay Down

from buttons 21 and 22.

The mute commands are command 370, but in two other zones, so you can get those only one at a time anyway, changing the zone as described in
[Link: remotecentral.com]

I have uploaded a PCF file to the Remote Central forum that contains discrete codes for the Denon AVR-4306 made from the IR codes in the Denon document as well as MakeHex and IR Code Generator. The file hasn't been posted yet, but can be found over at the AVSForum here: [Link: avsforum.com]. The pcf file contains a device, Denon 4306, that contains several pages named "IR XXXX", where "XXXX" are various functions (sone 2, tuner, etc). The discrete codes have all been taught onto those pages. I've encoded all of the IR commands except for the ipod control codes. I'll get to those once my iPod to Denon cable arrives....

-- Dave

Pronto Dave,

Thanks for uploading the codes.

For future reference, even though you use the NG editor, It would be much more helpful if you could capture all your IR codes in a CCF file using cut-n-paste from the NG editor then upload the IR CCF.

The reason being is that many folks have not moved to the NG platform but since these codes are Raw Codes (first 4 digits are 0000), even the legacy remote users should be able to benefit. Also, the MX-3000 editor and other Palm PC users can import CCF where they cannot import PCFs. So, a simple shift in file format can benefit many users, not only those who use the NG remotes.

John,
I will test these over the weekend with this receiver.
I am building a rack for a job that includes a Denon AVR-3806.

I have an RTI T3 here, and I can import Hex directly into their software.

Thanks again...
Rick.