Wondering if anyone is using a Harmony along with the Harman Kardon AVR 635 and is able to control (from the main room) the "zone 2" configuration?

I have the HK 635 on backorder; downloading the manual and reading in other forums here on remotecentral lead me to believe I might have a problem. If anyone else has this equipment, could you say how you set it up?

A Harmony can send any IR command that the original remote can.

I get the feeling that the AVR 635 will come with two remotes - one for each zone.

There was a thread recently covering this set up:
[Link: remotecentral.com]

Though I'm afraid the person asking the question was a bit dense, its a good starting point. For 2 zones, its generally best to treat each as a separate device.

It looks like things aren't quite so simple in Harman Kardon land.

Apparently the "second remote" uses the same codes as the first remote -- you're supposed to run an IR extender (not included, another $60 extra) in the second room, and plug it into the back.

So, this would work for me, but I don't want to run the wire and buy the extender.

The other thing is that it's possible to control the second room program from the main IR and remote, but it's a complex sequence of menus. And I don't really want a separate activity, I just want soft-key buttons ("kitchen on", "kitchen off") on the "Sound" menu of every activity.

That's why I'm wondering if there's anyone here who actually has a Harman Kardon 635 and is happily controlling a second zone using a Harmony remote.

If the receiver is the sound device for all of your activities, then the commands you need for "kitchen on" and "kitchen off" will be available via the Sound button by default - just go into the button configuration on the Device itself and get rid of any LCD commands you don't need and rename the zone2 power commands as Kitchen On and Kitchen Off.

I think with this device, it's almost like I need two activities, one for each room.

"Watch TV in Living room" and, at the same time, "listen to TV in the kitchen".

The receiver allows for other combinations, e.g., "watch TV in living room" and "listen to Radio in kitchen" at the same time. But of course, with the Harmony, you're only doing one activity at a time.

It looks more and more like I need to get HKs $60 auxiliary IR receiver, run another wire from living room to kitchen for the remote (a couple of hours work at my rate), and then use the HK remote control in the kitchen, not the Harmony.

When I get the thing, I'll call Harmony/Logitech support and see if they have any better ideas.

Could you explain how you're using the zone 2 output in the kitchen? I've never understood why you would set something up like that in the first place. Maybe there's an easier way to go?

Well, since you asked for more explanation:

The main system is in the living room (Zone 1); we use it for watching TV, DVDs, listening to the radio, music CDs, sometimes video games, PC music.

We also have a pair of speakers in the kitchen (Zone 2), with two pairs of (14AWG) speaker wire run through the walls from living room to kitchen.

Sometimes we're working or sitting in the kitchen and we'll listen to the radio or music there.

Sometimes we're watching TV or a DVD but want to go check on something in the kitchen, can't or don't want to pause, so we want to turn on the (same) sound in the kitchen as is on in the lliving room.

So, combinations used now:

Zone 1: sound off; Zone 2: radio or DVD.
Zone 1: TV, DVD, radio; Zone 2: either off or set to the same

Desirable combinations (also supported by HK635):

Zone 1: game, TV, DVD; Zone 2: radio

The HK635 can support this, if I can figure out a way of controlling it that makes sense.

You said that to control Zone 2 on the main (Zone 1) IR reciever requires navigating through a series of menus. I'm afraid that a Harmony can't do that for you as it doesn't have the macro capability you'd need for that.

Well, I've been making good progress on this, through trial and error.

I'm not sure it's working completely, but I *have* gotten it to turn the kitchen on and off.

What I did was add a second receiver, which I called "kitchen". I changed the 'power' settings so that it didn't have an on/off remote button -- like it was "always on".

I changed the "input" characterization so that it had inputs corresponding to the second zone (video1, video2, video3, video4, cd, dvd, tape, tuner), and the IR commands for changing the input by using remote commands to get into "input switching mode" ('multiroom' 'multiroom' 'up' 'select') and to switch inputs ('up') and to end switching ('select', 'select').

I then set up two activities, CD from Kitchen (based on 'play CD', using the 'kitchen' reciever), and radio from Kitchen (based on 'listen to radio', using 'kitchen receiver').
For both of these activities, I added an extra command, when the activity starts ('multiroom'), and when the activity ends ('multiroom', 'select', 'down', 'select').

You don't get "macros" except for sequences when activities start and stop.

One of the puzzles had to do with the difference in behavior of the device in response to the 'multiroom' remote command. If the device is on, or multiroom is already on, the 'multiroom' remote key selects the 'multiroom on/off' menu. However, if both the main reciever and the multiroom control is off, the 'multiroom' command will turn on the second zone.

SO: if the kitchen was last listening to the CDs, and I select the 'kitchen radio' activity, the act of switching the kitchen input will also turn on the multiroom. However, if the kitchen was last listening to the CD and I select 'kitchen CD', well, the input switch doesn't turn it on, thus the 'multiroom' command when the activity begins.

Well, that's the theory so far.

Unfortunately, with a dynamic situation like this, you're going to have problems unless you can think of some way to reliably bring the system to a known state. Setting up a second set of inputs with a pseudo-device for the reciever might be a solution, but you're going to have issues with it stepping on its clone.

With the HK635, the input selection for the second zone is independent of the input selection of the main -- you can listen to the radio in one room and a CD in another.
(If you're listening to the radio in both, there's only one tuner, just like there's only one CD. Good thing we only listen to one radio station.)

I _think_ it's all working now, or at least, I've tried all the transitions, and they seem to work pretty consistently. I had to fiddle with the delays and repeats; I'd adjusted them on the regular device, but not on its clone. If the reciever is off (which it should be, since it's not used in the 'kitchen' activities), hitting 'multiroom' brings it into a known state, since it will turn on the multiroom option if it's off.

This 'solution' is still annoying, because of its reliability (the Harmony 'help' button says 'make sure the kitchen is on', not very usefully), and the lack of controls (e.g., no easy way to adjust the volume, change the radio station, mute the music if the phone rings, etc.)

I guess I have a couple of fallback options:

* buy the $60 "second room IR remote reciever" from HK, and run the cable through the walls and cabinets to reach the kitchen with the little "second room" remote that comes with the HK635.

* program Girder and RS232 on my HTPC to control the HK635. I'd guess this was 10 hours work, unless I can get code from someone who's already done it. And my IRA already uses the RS232 port, so I'll need to get a USB/RS232 adapter, RS232 cable.

* get an inexpensive (remote controllable) little stereo amplifier for the kitchen, set it up in my component cabinet as the "kitchen" reciever, and run it off one of the (stereo) line outputs from the HK635. This would be a setup where we could only listen in the kitchen if also listening in the living room. (Not too bad, the Hsu STF-3 subwoofer in the living room shakes the kitchen too). I'm starting to like this option. Any suggestions for the amp? There's not much room, so I'd like something really small (otherwise I'd buy an old stereo reciever on ebay).

* send the HK635 back (eating the shipping costs both ways) and buy something else that is easier to control (but maybe doesn't sound as good). I have 25 days on my 30-day money-back period. This seems too much like admitting defeat.

Harman Kardon also has some other "second room" audio distribution capabilities (something called A-Bus, for example), but they seem to require having more electronics in the kitchen, and part of the goal was to not take up any counter space in the kitchen. (The speakers are sitting on top of the kitchen cabinets).

This message was edited by lmm on 05/27/05 03:41 ET.

I think I'd just buy a second receiver/cd player for the kitchen.

* "second room IR" device not available from HK (on "back order", no ETA)

* I bought a USB/RS232 adapter and hooked it up to the HK 635 (which came with a warning that this was only for 'professionals'.) It winds up crashing (blue screen) Windows XP. I'm able to get communication from the HK635 (it sends its status and front control panel display continuously), but haven't been able to get it to recognize any commands. The 635 uses a newer RS232 protocol than older HK receivers; bidirectional, higher speed, parity check words. I don't think Girder is up to the task, though, I'd have to write my own serial port control program.

* Buying another amplifier: the only amps I've found small enough to fit into available cabinet space are the radio shack awful quality jobs.

* Putting a second receiver/cd player in the kitchen is not really an option. Don't want to use up counter space, don't want CDs used or stored there.

It's just maddening to have the equipment set up, wired, it sounds great, and not be able to use it because I can't get the remote control to work with the Harmony reliably.

Part of the frustration was how I couldn't get the HK 635 to play the "multi-room" capability at all when it was "down-converting" other input modes (from optical or coax connection from cable, the HTPC, or DVD) until I first ran them with analog input and turned on multiroom. I think could set the input mode back to digital (and even disconnect the analog input) and _then_ the HK would do the down conversion. I can't figure out what that was all about; some kind of glitch in the HK?


This message was edited by lmm on 05/30/05 14:51 ET.

Success! Hooray!

The folks at HomeTech (www.hometech.com) were quite helpful, and set me up with a Xantech 291-10 IR device, which I installed in the kitchen to listen to IR signals from the "second remote" taht came with the receiver. I threaded the IR signal wire through the wall & cabinets with a little poking (since the cabinets were already drilled for the speaker cables previously installed, so this only took a couple of hours; I don't have the wall fishing-wires that pros use, but I managed by taping the end of the wire to a coathanger.)

The Xantechs are sensitive; I destroyed one using an unregulated 12-volt power supply, but HomeTech helped me out, and I tested out the second one before I left the store. The Xantech + power supply ran a little more than the $60, but I could pick it up.
Installed, it works! I can independently turn on and off, and control the volume. It even can change the radio station. It's still a little funky in that you have to use the Harmony in one room to turn on the CD player, and then the second remote in the kitchen to listen there, but it's workable.

To get the HK second remote to control the DVD/CD player would require an IR emitter out of the back of the receiver to the front of the player; I think I'm going to hold off on that.

For WAF, I wrote a little guide and taped it to the second remote (it's is a little confusing, because you have to press "DVD" to get the CD player and "CD" to get the computer, and "AVR" and then "OFF" to turn it off), but at least controlling the second zone doesn't require a complex walk through 5-second-timed menus.

I've deleted all the "kitchen" activities out of the Harmony setup, since they didn't work out.

I had trouble with the wiring (had to re-solder the connectors once to clear up one problem), and with IR interference (the light from the skylight was interfering with the IR signals to the receiver on top of the cabinets, during the day). I solved the latter problem temporarily by making an aluminum foil 'hat' for the IR receiver. I think I may need to move its mounting point so that it isn't in the sunlight.

Lessons:

* Harmony can't easily do multiple zones with one remote, because there are actually two independent activities
* Harman Kardon made things worse by not making discrete IR commands for controlling the second zone, and (even worse) using the same IR codes for the main room and the second room and distinguishing by the IR input port

This message was edited by lmm on 06/05/05 02:46 ET.