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The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:
| Topic: | New Audio/Video distribution project This thread has 41 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 42. |
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| Post 31 made on Saturday September 30, 2006 at 10:29 |
roddymcg Loyal Member |
Joined:
Posts: | September 2003
6,796 |
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On September 30, 2006 at 10:23, Jeff DeLine said...
2nd Rick, thanks for the heads up on the Escient stuff.
I was very comfortable with the interface and very pleased
with it. As far as the HD6 one of my concerns is the
the numer of source inputs. I expect to have 6 DirecTV
receivers, Escient, and DVD along with 4 cameras giving
me a total of 12 and the HD6 is limited to 9. I guess
I could look at doing something different with the cameras
and use the HD6 for the rest. I am also very comfortable
with B&K and really like their CT products. You say you
prefer bundled mini-coax; have you tried Cat5 at all using
the B&K LB10W Cat5 to RCA conversion module?. What bundled
mini-coax do you recommend?
Roddy, from what I understand with the CT I cannot use
the buffered audio out as well as speaker level out for
the same zones meaning that in those zones I would need
to add zones. Am I understanding this correctly?
Can't say I have tried this to be honest with you. For programming simplicity I like to have everything seperated. The guys at B&K would have to give you an answer on that. As far as the cameres, how about running them through a DVR of your liking. Something that could even give you remote access. I have had good luck with Dedicated Micros in this manner. Turns all your cameras into one input on your video switcher. Fun thing is that there are so many options...
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When good enough is not good enough. |
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| Post 32 made on Saturday September 30, 2006 at 13:06 |
BigPapa Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | October 2005
3,139 |
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Ideally, with the mini coax bundle (6 coax), I'd pull at least two CAT5's and a conduit. The conduit provides for future pulls so you don't have to wire for every concievable possbility, which can be cost prohibitive.
My thought process is; three coax for component video; two coax for line level audio, one coax for either digital audio or composite video (cameras?). The other CAT5's will be used for control (IR or 232), or network. Someone will likely chime in about another possible/might be used circuit, but the point is that there's no "One for All Future Proof Video Pull."
Do a web search on Wesley Mullings and HA ready, you'll get a good kick.
Your CI should be very wary of just giving you advice to 'wire for the future.' In many cases, advice is given to 'pull a coupla CAT5's for the future' to hook up to video baluns or HDMI, and the skew issue isn't addressed. HDMI has tight tolerances also, and not just any CAT5 will do in a conversion situation.
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| Post 33 made on Saturday September 30, 2006 at 16:37 |
ejfiii Select Member |
Joined:
Posts: | July 2003
2,021 |
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I just want to say one thing.
The OP has 24 TVs and 12 or 14 sources to distribute through a house.
For me and my company, a typical high end distributed video system has 12 or14 sources and 5 or 6 viewing locations (some are TVs, some are surround sound systems, some are theaters). When designing this type of system we only use Crestron for control and usually distribution, but if we have to, we'll use an Extron or Autopatch matrix switch. Then we also matrix switch the composite video for cameras and touchpanels. Then we matrix switch the analog audio to supply line level or speaker level to the viewing area.
This is a lot of stuff and usually fills up a 44 space rack (with sources). And this type of system costs a good amount.
So the OP has 6 times the viewing areas of most of my clients; and he's doing it himself - possibly with modulators? Come on. My system as outlined above would cost at least $100k by the time it was installed, controlled and programmed. Has there ever been a better time to induce Ed's tagline?
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| Post 34 made on Saturday September 30, 2006 at 20:48 |
ceied Loyal Member |
Joined:
Posts: | February 2002
5,753 |
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On September 30, 2006 at 10:23, Jeff DeLine said...
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Ceied, what product do you use for the 6 serial digital
coax? On the Suite 16 can I have line level and speaker
level out for the same zones? first of all let me just say this "HIRE A PRO" i use gepco vpm2000 serial digital coax.... just ran over 8000 feet in my bulls!ht little house..... then i terminate them with canare connects...nice...... as for speaker and line at same time yes you can but it will chew up 2 zones. i dont know of any system that will let you do both at same time.... let me give you example.. the "game" room at my house consisit of 2 lcd tvs and a pair of inceiling speakers. each lcd eats up a zone and the in ceiling does as well. total 3 zones in one room. i can have xbox on one display, play station on the other and audio over the inceilings from something else or i can have bears game on both and audio from ceiling or ceiling off and audio from displays only...really quite trick. really you need to hire a pro..this will get ugly in a hurry ed
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Ed will be known as the Tiger Woods of the integration business, followed closely with the renaming of his company to "Hotties A/V". The tag line will be "We like big racks and tight holes"... |
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| Post 35 made on Sunday October 1, 2006 at 00:48 |
2nd rick Super Member |
Joined:
Posts: | August 2002
4,521 |
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On September 30, 2006 at 10:23, Jeff DeLine said...
2nd Rick, thanks for the heads up on the Escient stuff.
I was very comfortable with the interface and very pleased
with it. As far as the HD6 one of my concerns is the
the numer of source inputs. I expect to have 6 DirecTV
receivers, Escient, and DVD along with 4 cameras giving
me a total of 12 and the HD6 is limited to 9. I guess
I could look at doing something different with the cameras
and use the HD6 for the rest. I am also very comfortable
with B&K and really like their CT products. If you don't mind adding some programming to control a new (and complex) device input commands to the local displays, you could place the cameras on a quad multiplex unnit and use a distribution amp (DA) to get the output to all of the displays. Using a multiplexer is probably the best way to tackle the cameras anyway, plus they make them with DVRs and web-servers (for off-site monitoring) for reasonable prices these days... You say you
prefer bundled mini-coax; have you tried Cat5 at all using
the B&K LB10W Cat5 to RCA conversion module?. What bundled
mini-coax do you recommend? Although I have used B&K products (including the CT series audio system), I have not used the B&K HD6 yet. I have used baluns from a couple different manufacturers with mixed results. My choice of mini-coax over baluns comes down to signal integrity... First, baluns require conversion from coaxial termiations to UTP, and then back to coaxial. Anytime there is conversion like this, there is a potential for signal degradation... this is compounded by the fact that coax by nature is more robust then UTP, and not nearly as succeptible to damage from runs. If you have runs that use baluns and UTP, and the integrity of the UTP has been compromised by overly-aggressive pulling, sharp bends, or sloppy termination, then the differences are even greater. As I cautioned above, using CAT5E runs that route through a structured wiring panel seem to add pretty significant degradation to the signal... Direct runs are best, and using the low-skew UTP cabling should help even more. I choose to use the appropriate mini-coax, and really it's just because fewer factors can mess it up!! Just like coach Phil Jackson, I like when I can count on the "high percentage" shots. If you are leaning toward baluns, Look at the models from Extron and AutoPatch to see examples of the best products that exist, and then see what can be done for a LOT less with companies like MuxLabs, Niles, etc. No frills to be sure, but using direct runs of properly terminated low-skew cables should provide consistently good results. Roddy, from what I understand with the CT I cannot use
the buffered audio out as well as speaker level out for
the same zones meaning that in those zones I would need
to add zones. Am I understanding this correctly? You CAN use the line level and the speaker level at the same time on a CT system. You can set it up zone by zone to be either fixed or variable, with variable outputs tracking the same as the speaker level outputs. If you are adding an amp to a zone that is already in use to create a sub-zone situation, you can do this. You would have to leave the line level outputs fixed and place a line level preamp in front of the amplifier channels to allow seperate control over each area's volume. We use RGC-11s from Xantech to do exactly this.
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Rick Murphy
Troy, MI |
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| Post 36 made on Sunday October 1, 2006 at 14:00 |
shlampen Lurking Member |
Joined:
Posts: | October 2006
5 |
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On September 25, 2006 at 22:29, Jeff DeLine said...
Hi all, hoping to get some validation, encouragement,
advice, or “you’re crazy” for a new project we’re undertaking.
We made a decision to go into the custom home building
business after I was “put out to pasture” from the company
I worked at for the last 20 years. Even though my field
was senior IT management I built houses in Michigan in
the 70’s but moved on when interest rates reached an all-time
high while at the same time the auto industry was tanking.
Prior to our current endeavor we sold our custom home
in the Baltimore area that was built three years ago.
It’s a home that I designed but built by a well regarded
custom home builder (who has given us much encouragement
to enter the custom home business). We had what I considered
to be a very good audio/video system at our last house
and my plan is to incorporate much of the design into
the current home we are building but still have some reservations
and would love to get some feedback.
Last house. Audio distribution was 2 B&K CT610’s. Also
used these for IR distribution (Xantech) but not for
video distribution. Sources were 4 DirecTv receivers,
(2) 400 disc CD changers running through an Escient TuneBase
200, DVD player, and XM. We had 17 pairs of speakers
inside and 5 pairs outside that made up our 12 zones.
Video distribution was all modulated. Modulated sources
were 6 DirecTv receivers, Escient , DVD player, and 4
cameras. Cameras were combination of standalone and Channel
Vision doorbell cameras. The modulators and distribution
equipment was a combination of Open House, Channel Plus,
and Channel Vision.
All equipment was housed in Middle Atlantic racks.
Control as I mentioned above was through the CT610’s using
MX-700’s. We also had one CK1.2 keypad but was not real
thrilled with it. It was in the bar area where we played
with the Escient a lot, but without any type of transport
control it was much easier to use a remote.
Trying to transition from this setup to where I want to
go now is my quandary. As far as audio, I love, love,
love the B&K. The CD’s are now a thing of the past since
my wife has now amassed a library of over 50,000 MP3’s.
The video is where I’m stuck. At the last place we only
had one HD receiver. That was in the lower level theater
where all of the equipment was housed and didn’t run through
the modulated system. In the new project I would like
to move HD at least a few other places but not sure where
to go. I know we could go with a video matrix (even something
like the B&K HD6) but that presents it’s own problems.
We might have a bunch of people over for Sunday NFL and
have 7 or 8 different games going on at the same time
in the basement. Typically, no sound is on the TV’s
but music is playing but if someone wants to get the sound
for a minute for the game there are fixed on they grab
the remote and turn up the volume on that TV. At the
same time most of the time my wife and I are listening
to music we have something on the TV for video background.
Long story short, my most immediate decision right now
is what cable to pull for video. If I was modulating
all video sources like before, one RG6 to each location
would be sufficient but I believe if that’s all I did
I would regret it in the long run.
I know this is a long post but any feedback, criticism,
or advice is appreciated.
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Steve Lampen
Multimedia Technology Manager
Belden |
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| Post 37 made on Sunday October 1, 2006 at 14:18 |
roddymcg Loyal Member |
Joined:
Posts: | September 2003
6,796 |
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On October 1, 2006 at 14:00, shlampen said...
Well said...
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When good enough is not good enough. |
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| OP | Post 38 made on Sunday October 1, 2006 at 23:12 |
Jeff DeLine Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2003
54 |
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On September 30, 2006 at 16:37, ejfiii said...
I just want to say one thing.
The OP has 24 TVs and 12 or 14 sources to distribute through
a house.
For me and my company, a typical high end distributed
video system has 12 or14 sources and 5 or 6 viewing locations
(some are TVs, some are surround sound systems, some are
theaters). When designing this type of system we only
use Crestron for control and usually distribution, but
if we have to, we'll use an Extron or Autopatch matrix
switch. Then we also matrix switch the composite video
for cameras and touchpanels. Then we matrix switch the
analog audio to supply line level or speaker level to
the viewing area.
This is a lot of stuff and usually fills up a 44 space
rack (with sources). And this type of system costs a
good amount.
So the OP has 6 times the viewing areas of most of my
clients; and he's doing it himself - possibly with modulators?
Come on. My system as outlined above would cost at least
$100k by the time it was installed, controlled and programmed.
Has there ever been a better time to induce Ed's tagline? ejfiii, I do understand what I am getting into here. We had 22 viewing areas at our last house (the only difference is we had 3 for the back bar vs 4 that we will have this time and did not have a TV on the kitchen deck) and though the distribution was based on modulation it served our purpose extremely well. Also, the system was designed and implemented in early 2003 and modulation made the most sense at the time. As far as control (and audio) we were very satisfied with the CT610s. Granted it's not Crestron but I believe with the right programming and the right remotes and/or keypads using the B&K product for control is very acceptable. That said, a lot of folks here have given me some good advice (even those that say hire a pro) but at least they address me, or the problem I'm trying to solve instead of referring to me as the OP as if I don't exist. Everyone else, as I mentioned above I realize the scope of the project I am undertaking. I also appreciate the advice that has been given, particularly the comments that modulation is dead. My goal right now is to pull the proper cable. I will continue to as much research as possible but know that I will not be using modulators but do not know at this point in time what my ultimate solution will be. I would like to make a couple of comments on hiring a pro. One, this is now the 4th house we have lived in that I designed and implemented A/V distribution. Each one has been much more complex but also more feature rich. On the last house I spent about an hour walking through the house during the framing stage with the owner of a top notch CI business in our area. Before he met me at the house I had given him documentation I had put together with what I intended to do and told him I just wanted to buy equipment from him (I was looking at the Suite 16 at the time). He gave me pricing on the equipment and we discussed using him as a paid consultant on an as needed basis. During further research, I discovered the B&K product, decided to go that route and informed him of my decision. He was not familiar with the B&K product line but was very encouraging to me, said to stay in touch and he would be happy to consult on the project if I ran into problems. About a year after I completed my project which included my new lower level theater and bar I got a call from him to see if he could come over and talk about the B&K stuff as he was looking at becoming a dealer. We spent a good deal of time talking about my experiences with the B&K product, as well as their tech support. He was also very impressed with what we had put together. He also mentioned that he had seen many jobs done by pros that did not have the amount of neatness in the racks, electrical closet, labeling and stuff that we had going on. I guess what I am trying to say is that I really enjoy doing this. I know I'm not a pro but I know with some proper guidance to at least send me off in the right direction for research along with my attention to detail and follow through I will somehow get it done.
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| Post 39 made on Monday October 2, 2006 at 06:51 |
ejfiii Select Member |
Joined:
Posts: | July 2003
2,021 |
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On October 1, 2006 at 23:12, Jeff DeLine said...
ejfiii, I do understand what I am getting into here.
We had 22 viewing areas at our last house (the only difference
is we had 3 for the back bar vs 4 that we will have this
time and did not have a TV on the kitchen deck) and though
the distribution was based on modulation it served our
purpose extremely well. Also, the system was designed
and implemented in early 2003 and modulation made the
most sense at the time. As far as control (and audio)
we were very satisfied with the CT610s. Granted it's
not Crestron but I believe with the right programming
and the right remotes and/or keypads using the B&K product
for control is very acceptable. That said, a lot of folks
here have given me some good advice (even those that say
hire a pro) but at least they address me, or the problem
I'm trying to solve instead of referring to me as the
OP as if I don't exist. Are you freakin kidding me? OP means original poster - its a very common term in the internet BBS world. Would have thought that someone with a IT Networking background would know these basic terms? As for your post above, 22 TVs with a modulator is simple. 24 TVs with a proper video distribution system is not. I suggest you go to www.avsforum.com for additional information. You will fit in great there, trust me on that. What is your consulting fee? Seeing that your not far away in Baltimore I'd like to pay you to come lecture at my $20m/year CI firm to tell us all how we're doing it wrong and can improve our work. I'm sure your IT and house building background more than qualifies you for this. Hell, I'd like to nominate you for the next CEDIA president too. Is there still any question: [Link: remotecentral.com] ?
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| OP | Post 40 made on Monday October 2, 2006 at 07:08 |
Jeff DeLine Long Time Member |
Joined:
Posts: | December 2003
54 |
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Yes, I know what OP means. My statement was you addressing the board as opposed to addressing me with your comments. No, I do not consult, do not have the ability or expertise to consult. If you re-read my post you will see that the CI I was discussing was willing to consult with me on an as needed basis as opposed to doing the design and installation as a turnkey project. That meant he would have been the paid consultant. 22 TV's with modulators might be simple to you but it was my first experience with modulation and was definitely a challenge. This upcoming project will be an even bigger challenge. Will I stumble some along the way? You can bet on it. Will I somehow get through it and have satisfaction at the end of the day? You can bet on that also.
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| Post 41 made on Monday October 2, 2006 at 07:36 |
ejfiii Select Member |
Joined:
Posts: | July 2003
2,021 |
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Like I said, you're going to get more help on this forum: [Link: avsforum.com] Lots of real experts hang out there.
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| Post 42 made on Monday October 2, 2006 at 07:43 |
Wire Nuts Active Member |
Joined:
Posts: | June 2005
611 |
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On September 30, 2006 at 10:23, Jeff DeLine said...
I expect to have 6 DirecTV receivers, Escient, and DVD along with 4 cameras giving
me a total of 12 and the HD6 is limited to 9. I guess
I could look at doing something different with the cameras
and use the HD6 for the rest. You may want to look at the audioaccess product made by harmon. I believe you can have up to 6-7 input sources plus up to 6 dedicated camera inputs. No modulation needed. easily expandable in increments of 6 zones. Also has abilty to add local source inputs at each one of the keypads. www.audioaccess.com What bundled mini-coax do you recommend? Belden. Have had tremendous success with this product.
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