Stick the words 'big-box' in there please - some of us are still doing both CI and retail...

(I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but I wanted to be sure everyone else got it...)

And the families of those who went out of business when Tweeter rolled into town.

Being from NY I have little experience with Tweeter. But as I do more work in New England my contacts there speak highly of them ( in relative terms). Unlike Best Buy and Circuit City, salesmen supposedly know a thing or two about what they are selling ( to the degree salesman know anything other than how to calcuate their spiffs is an other issue for an other thread ). They usually sell at MAP so there is no price pressure exerted on those of us who need every pound of profit to survive. Do they understand custom install?

To a minor degree. But I could make a case that many calling themselves custom installers know even less. People with 6 months experience cutting sheet rock and installing in wall speakers and surround receivers get a business license and a tax ID. How much do they know about custom? But it's ok for them to install a computer network, a lighting system, or structured wiring. Yes, let's run CBus wire to the plasma monitor. That should be just fine and dandy.

How many STUPID questions do I ( just little ol' me; forget everyone else. ) answer about the most basic, BASIC questions from ground loops to serial protocols, to series/parallel wiring. Let's not be so fast to cast stones unless you have specific knowledge and experience with Tweeter that adds some facts to your insults and beliefs. All of us can be guilty of installing products that best suit our needs even if that need is I can get product A but not B. Why install a Sharp LCD. My opinion is that it's picture is crap and it's controllability suspect depending on year and model. How many plasmas are installed with speakers when additional in walls are also in the system. I see no evidence that Tweeter is any more guilty of this than most CI firms.

I do not disagree with your assertion that big anything puts too much beaurocracy in the way to be nimble enough to react to an industry that changes very fast. But how you then reach the illogical ( because it is not supported by any evidence ) conclusion that they treat customers exactly as do Best Buy, Circuit City, or J&R ( with whom I do have experience ) is unfair and gratutitus.

I will predict the following: those companies who survive into the future will look like the following: very large firms or very small firms. And if Control4 gets off the ground the pressures on the average custom house to grow big will be severe. Take your shots but how about a little supporting evidence. Opinions by definition should be based upon evidence and facts. Beliefs, on the other hand is what everyone has, just like an anus.

I should add the following. If you buy everything through distribution you may find it easier to avoid the pitfalls someone who is direct with a line may find more difficult. As you move from product to product because it is what the client wants or fits into a price point ( yes, I too think selling a 480p projector for a media room a disservice to the client even as I admit to doing so because the that was the client's self imposed budet. But if you are direct with [name your favorite brand ] you are more likely to try and sell it as you need to maintain your minimums. Crestron dealers sell ( surprise! ) Crestron and not AMX. Integra dealers Integra and not Denon, Yamaha nor HK. How could anyone sell B&K? If you have the franchise what else would you sell. The biggest players in custom ( many of which are in my area of business ) are technically stupid but amoung the best salesman you will ever encounter. Thier salesmanship enables them to purchase technical support. And I promise you they do ( sell ) what is best for them and not the customer although there is a gray area that makes the waters very muddy and merkey.
Alan

This message was edited by Audible Solutionns on 05/14/05 23:15 ET.

Ihave yet to bash Tweeter but can say the few installs i have seen have been horrible. I actually went and took some photos of their $50k install in a place. Their rack was 12" deep home depot wire shelving. Equip was levelled with wirenuts. Rear surrounds had the ywires drilled thru the carpet and bookshelves on the floor in the middle of the room. Maybe I'll upload a few photos at IP. They use to use sub'd out installers. YUou know the deal, anyone without work. What a mess. Appartently they have their own installers but who knows for sure.

Alan,

I never stated that they treat their customers EXACTLY the same as BB and CC, I stated that they operate under the same "move those boxes" mentality. Although, it would seem to me, that there's really not much difference between T and BB in that BOTH are attempting to do the retail/CI thing (MY OPINION). Just a difference in the size of their respective operations, and the difference in the ever present, ever flashy, "sale" adds.

The rest of your post I simply couldn't follow. Sorry.

Besides, I see no up side to flaming you for your postion/opinion.

I agree with you TSS, the whole thougt of deep stock warehouses and distribution centers for a semi-custom retail model is flawed. The little retail place I worked at 10 years ago found this to be true. We tried to keep stock on hand for walk-in, over the counter sales, AND we ordered product for jobs... as the business shifted from retail to custom, our inventory turns took a bad turn (sorry), we were constantly either on credit limit/hold and/or desperately under stocked.

We had so much product on the floor that was turning so slowly that we basically had to strip the displays and sell them off cheap for the cashflow, and lock the doors to a couple of the display areas around the store.

Good side = I had room to stage for my custom jobs
Bad side = I was paying retail lease rates for that storage area.

I don't care if it's Tweeter, BB, CC, or any other regional chain or large local retailer... if the buyers got duped into bringing on some dog models, the sales staff have to place the product SOMEWHERE!!

I once had a rep friend tell me that his job was to sell whatever he has been hired to sell, and I should feel the same way.

Another rep once said that if they "shove enough stuff in the back door, that eventually someone in the company will figure out how to get it it out the front door."

I used to sell off product because I had it in stock, it worked out good enough, and I needed the turn...

Now I sell what fits best, and order it for the job.
I may not get the deepest terms anymore, but I maintain a lot of the relationships from back then, so we get treated pretty well.

This message was edited by 2nd rick on 05/16/05 17:29 ET.

Sorry, I was out of town last week and just saw this thread today (hence my comments on the earlier points brought up)>

I for one am thrilled that Tweeter is closing some locations. I'm not afraid of another trunk-slammer in any of our markets - we just make sure our company is attractive enough to grab up all of the good ones. We're having no problems filling our installer needs for the large number of Magnolia locations we are opening next week - Tweeter and Ultimate have created a pool of qualified applicants unlike any this industry has ever seen.
We're still being picky though - I worked for United Audio for years before the Tweeter ownership. One year after the purchase I didn't know a single person in any of the stores as they'd all quit. Now we're testing all applicants and taking the best. I guess that the remainder will become those trunk-slammers. I'm not at all concerned that they'll pose a threat for us anyone else on this site, though.

Jeff Wagner

I tihnk the whole "Magnolia" outfit is going to be funny, if not hilarious. Lets take a big box retailer, who's main client base are mostly cheap bargain hunters with little to no interest in quality. and who think the barter system is alive and thriving in this country, and lets toss some good, high end expensive products in front of them. "I will you 30 dollars for your Paradigm speakers" "Look, you look here now, this Bose system is cheaper than your Rotel and your Mirage, you match Bose price"


Have fun with that clusterfack.

Talk about a joke! I can't wait to see this Magnolia mess. Best Buy will be scrambling in a year or 2 after they fire everyone they stole from Tweeter and other companies for not hitting there goals. I know for a fact that Best Buy is throwing around crazy money to Tweeter managers and other companies employes and making it very clear that they will be required to hit there goals on a monthly basis to keep ther job. Go to any local Best Try and try to find a store manager who has been there for more than 2 years. Also think about the managers that are willing to jump ship! I happen to know one and he did a horrible job managing custom at Tweeter. They all know the answers that you want to hear on your "test". My point is that Best Buy is trying to pull off custom shops by taking experienced manager and they think it will just take off. No customer other than on the west coast has ever heard of Magnolia and no body in their right mind wants an instal done by best buy, so give it a few years, a bunch of store closings, a ton of fired associates and you will still have the good old Best buy we have all grone to love. You know the " We don't work on no comissions " best buy. Tweeter will do just fine and will continue to be a bigger and bigger player in the install business. Any company that knows what they are doing closes poorly preforming stores when times are tough. I also don't think any small shops should be worried about Magnolia. They will be very easy to sell off of. They failed miserably with the magnolia in the Best Buy test and I think the same will happen again.

This message was edited by kfp673 on 05/16/05 17:17 ET.

My point was, based on the information my contacts in the Great White North supplied, that Tweeter was essentially a mid-fi salon. They do not discount, they have a sales force that knows what its products are and are not--to the degree that any sales puke knows anything. The only difference between Tweeter and the one/two store salon is size. While that is a legitemate point to make--which Truck slamer supreme in fact did make--there have been firms like Sound Advance ( which Tweeter bought out ) that did combine retail and custom and a magnitude of scale and made a profit.

Best Buy and Tweeter seem to me different. ALL RETAIL OUTLETS MUST SELL OFF THEIR INVINTORY IRRESPECTIVE OF CUSTOMER NEEDS. Back in the day, I remember the owner and/or sales manager of a small mid-fi shop on 8th Street and Fifth Avenue ( which Pat Fields later took over when he went out of business in the Regan recession of 1987) telling his sales people that Yamaha had to be moved. Next it was Philips. Then Nakamichi. Then Denon. Being direct with a line often forces you to take on invintory and to improve cash flow you need to move that invintory. That could mean selling a Niles SI245 as a sub amp rather than the dedicated sub amp the speaker manufactuer sells. It might be selling speaker A rather than speaker B or display X in place of display Y. In essence the sales puke " pursuades" Mr or Mrs. America to purchase the product the store needs to move as opposed to the product the customer acutally requires ( how many of you sell or sold additional warantees?)

Best Buy sells equipment at the lowest possible prices to consumers who only care about price. To survive I assume they need to move boxes and move them in volume. Tweeter undoubtedly also needs to move boxes as does everyone in retail but they do not seem to be marketing to the same customer. Therefore while Tweeter's installation departments may be of varrying qualities and any time a sales puke is the system designer the job will be sub - standard I think it behooves anyone making the argument that Tweeter and Bust Buy/Circuit City are essentally the same retail outlet serving the same market to supply factual evidence to support that contention. People I trust in custom tell me that Tweeter is a very large mid-fi salon. A mid-fi salon and a box mover may have some factors in common but they are not the same kind of store catering to the same market.

I would not under estimate what financial resources and marketing prowess can do in the short term. No one may know Magnolia Audio from "Steel Magnolias" but someone will need to hang the plasmas and LCDs these guys already sell. Someone will need to install the HTIB's they also sell in aboundance. They do seem able to sell and upselling an installation does not strike me as difficult. There is a HUGE difference between an "installation" that consists of an ABUS audio system, mounting a plasma and a HT receiver and automating someones home ( which included lighting, HVAC and Security ). Installing a Linksys router in a typical residences is just not that difficult. It is not as though many custom firms enable WEP or understand the difference between a router and a gateway. Get them into the store and even the worst sales puke will be successful. I could name at least 5 of these retail outlets in NY whose installation ignorence effects their bottom line not in the least ( however, my lawyer warns me that my bank account could not tolerate the legal action that would ensue were I to name them here). They get customer in the store and do not let them out until the gang bang has been completed.

Alan

I have been reading this thread and am amazed at the energy so many of you are putting into bashing another business model. I mean, I know you resent not being afforded the same treatment from vendors as the big retailers, but they buy so much more merchandise than you, what would you expect?
I know you think consumers should seek you out for your superior work, but -- most of 'em don't know you exist.
The fact that big retailers are often lame re complex systems might provide some comfort, but over the years I have seen many formerly "complex systems" become commodities. Sony CD players, for example, first rolled out at 50 dealers nationwide (mine was one of them) at $1200 retail. Geek Squad is successful (in a market AV guys have largely ignored). Plasma prices will continue to drop, inviting in more retailers (Wal-Mart) and creating more need for plasma installation -- which the retailers will try to fill.
Point is, you must always be re-inventing yourself -- scrambling to higher ground, as it were -- to stay ahead of the commoditization of complex systems. That means planning, organizing, marketing. It means focusing your purchasing with as few vendors as possible so that you have some leverage, and regularly reviewing your financial performance to ensure you have enough money. It means following up with past customers constantly, to ensure you have future customers.
You'll need time & energy to get that work done. Why spend it on things over which you have no control?

Wow, this is fun! As I've mentioned in previous posts only those people who don't excel at what they do will have to fear us. Most of the bashing comments I read gave me a pretty good idea of which former business owners will soon be sitting in my newbie installer class at Best Buy corporate.
The sophomoric comments by small minded egoists coupled with the bald-faced lies by others could really set off a lesser man than myself. I have to assume that the average person viewing this thread can smell the fear from these folks and realizes that we are here for the long haul. I can tell you that the commitment at all levels in this company is outstanding. We are going all out to ensure that this will work. Just ignore the ignorant and check out the Magnolia Home Theater store when one opens in your neck of the woods. I think you'll be impressed.

Jeff Wagner

I'm not sure if thats fear that I smell, or the reprecussions of a White Castle breakfast. But either way, I'm in no way bashing Magnolia, they could in a way prove beneficial to us all, I just question whether or not BB attracts the clientel to support such an operation. It will be interesting to say the least. It's just a big part of this industry thrives because of Best Buy. The people who want more than BB can offer, will those people immediately start looking to BB for what they need? That will all depend on how BB markets the concept. I know nothing of how or where they will be marketing the program, but I look forward to seeing how it does.

A lot of my clients are the Who's Who of the area, and I KNOW they shop at BB... they ask me all the time about this or that product that they saw at BB while shopping for DVDs, CDs, computer software, etc.
These folks have been my clients, so they call me with their questions and try to give my their future business, but what about their peers that do not already have a relationship with the "technology guys"??

They will likely buy what is presented to them a BB/Mag, especially if there is a quieter boutique area with sharper and more experienced sales staff and more classy displays.

In my area at least, I am seeing a lot of familiar faces formerly from indie retail that I would have never expected to see at BB. I have heard that they are loosening the purse strings to step up the talent level in their stores.

In the ear future, BB could very well have a situation like the one with Wal-Mart in the South...

Nobody would argue that WM has the deepest DVD or CD dept., but in many small to mid sized communities they are the only place to buy them at all because they have driven everyone else out of business.

They get the business by default.

BB/Mag may just have the same effect on the remaining local retailers and small regional chains.

Montgomery Ward's pulled the Electric Ave. plug in '97, but it still contributed to the death of the 120+ yr. old corporation in 2000.

Tandy closed the Incredible Universe in '97 with a big bang, and while they didn't cost them the entire corporation, you can bet it was a costly experiment.

Ultimate is closing stores and struggling through restructuring in bankruptcy protection.

Now Tweeter is closing stores pro-actively, presumably because they have learned a lesson from the ones who came before them.

I think you guys are crazy. They are a free commercial and the test facility for new products. On top of all that I get a lot of people who say I saw this at wherever(BB, Tweeter, ect) and they are new sales. Most people turn to me with bad experiences and end up being new clients. Competion is good.