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Topic:
Two Center Speakers
This thread has 25 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 26.
Post 16 made on Wednesday December 4, 2019 at 01:50
Nick-ISI
Long Time Member
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September 2004
466
Are you supplying the TV? If so look at the 9 series Sonys that feature the acoustic surface and can be used as a centre channel speaker hooked up to an AVR.

Is it reference quality? No. Will it solve your problem and be suitable for this application? Yes.

Even if the TV is existing, you may be able to upsell them on this.
What do you mean you wanted it on the other wall - couldn't you have mentioned this when we prewired?
Post 17 made on Wednesday December 4, 2019 at 08:58
crosen
Senior Member
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1,124
Not a recommendation, but I will just throw out the idea of putting an on-wall center above or below the TV. All kinds of issues with that, but just another option to consider.
If it's not simple, it's not sufficiently advanced.
Post 18 made on Wednesday December 4, 2019 at 11:41
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On December 3, 2019 at 20:37, Brad Humphrey said...
WOW. It has been taught in audio classes for decades - DO NOT PUT 2 CENTER CHANNELS IN!!!
This causes comb filtering. Which is bad! If you think you don't hear a difference, you haven't demoed it (A/B) to yourself to hear.

Brendon,
I know you use to have a good 2ch setup at your house. Do you have something setup you can play with this, to see for yourself. Especially listen how the sound changes dramatically from seat to seat with 2 centers installed vs. 1. If you have an RTA, look at the comb effect it is creating to the response.
I promise you, you will never mistreat a customer by doing that again.

Interesting. Theory indeed says this should be a problem.
It should be a problem with the center channel information of any system that has to use "a phantom center" setup, that is, center information is shared equally by the two channels.

It should be a severe problem whenever a stereo system plays monaural sound, but I've never heard, nor ever even heard OF, the problem being an issue during monaural playback. "This monaural content should never be played on a stereo system as comb filtering will result." That's a warning I've never seen.

Heck, it should be a problem with ANY system where the sound coming from the left and right speakers is not COMPLETELY different. If the soundstage presents a signal "positioned" midway between the center channel and the right speaker, it will do so by sending signals of equal level to the center speaker and the right speaker, there should be bad, bad, bad comb filtering over there on the right. And of course this goes for the left, too. In fact, in the days of Pro Logic, where some front signal always bled into the rear channels, this should have been a problem on the sides.

I agree that it should have been a problem. The fact that I've never heard of it being a problem tells little about it as a problem, just tells something about the particular audio esoterica I've been exposed to. But Brad, did your sources EVER talk about comb filtering between anything but two center speakers?
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 19 made on Wednesday December 4, 2019 at 13:15
Brad Humphrey
Select Member
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On December 4, 2019 at 11:41, Ernie Gilman said...
....did your sources EVER talk about comb filtering between anything but two center speakers?

Yes Ernie. It is acoustics 101. Comb filtering happens due to all kind of conditions, including even when using only 1 speaker. Amazingly it doesn't sound as bad as it looks on an RTA, which would have you believe response is completely destroyed. Our brains fill in a lot of information (psychoacoustics) and with 2 ears on either side of our head, mic measurements struggle with properly representing what sounds get to our Cochlea.
That said, the detrimental effects to overall sound quality by rigging BS up is real. And running 2 center channels is definitely 'rigging' something up.

Correct solution is unique to each install.
Just having the stereo pair with no center, is correct if the primary seating locations are going to be near the equal distance point for imaging.
If seating is spread out, then some form of single point center sound anchor is needed near the video display.

And I love how the comments always come in: "It's just a living room system", "they don't care about overall sound quality", etc... Well in that case, it doesn't really matter what you do does it? Install 4 BOSE speaker in each ceiling corner of the room and call it a day.
Post 20 made on Wednesday December 4, 2019 at 14:47
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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29,352
Now, that's a reasonable response. Your Post 10 was a bit closer to rabid in its intensity:

On December 3, 2019 at 20:37, Brad Humphrey said...
WOW. It has been taught in audio classes for decades - DO NOT PUT 2 CENTER CHANNELS IN!!!
This causes comb filtering. Which is bad! If you think you don't hear a difference, you haven't demoed it (A/B) to yourself to hear.

Brendon,
... listen how the sound changes dramatically from seat to seat with 2 centers installed vs. 1. If you have an RTA, look at the comb effect it is creating to the response.

But above, you say
Amazingly it doesn't sound as bad as it looks on an RTA, which would have you believe response is completely destroyed.

You seem to de-emphasize how horrible the comb effect really is in comparison to the RTA display.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 21 made on Wednesday December 4, 2019 at 16:39
tweetymp4
Select Member
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March 2003
2,053
Our business is a mix of art and science... De Facto and De Jure... Black and White... Yin and Yang. Mix it all together and you have our "Craft"

Science says dual centers are bad. Reality says that they are often necessary. There are tons of tricks to make it work. That's where the craft comes in.
I'm Not an engineer, but I play one on TV.
My handle is Tweety but I have nothing to do with the organization of similar name. I just had a really big head as a child so folks called me tweety bird.
Post 22 made on Wednesday December 4, 2019 at 17:41
Mac Burks (39)
Elite Member
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17,221
[Link: truaudio.com]

Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 23 made on Saturday December 7, 2019 at 10:48
andrewinboulder
Senior Member
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August 2003
1,327
You guys like TrueAudio? I have not opinion - never used it just wondering if it's a decent line. I'm assuming it is since Mac suggested it.
Post 24 made on Saturday December 7, 2019 at 10:50
Mac Burks (39)
Elite Member
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On December 7, 2019 at 10:48, andrewinboulder said...
You guys like TrueAudio? I have not opinion - never used it just wondering if it's a decent line. I'm assuming it is since Mac suggested it.

I have no experience with it. Just showing what a custom sound bar or center channel would look like vs other options mentioned in the thread.
Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps
Post 25 made on Saturday December 7, 2019 at 11:09
mrtristan
Senior Member
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October 2003
1,456
The driver configuration itself of most centre speakers (two woofers, tweeter in between) creates comb filtering, which is why it can sound different from various listening angles. In a perfect world, where you want a solid centre image, you should have a single point transducer like KEF has been marketing for years.
Post 26 made on Saturday December 7, 2019 at 19:19 ...it's new!
3PedalMINI
Loyal Member
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July 2009
7,696
On December 3, 2019 at 20:37, Brad Humphrey said...
WOW. It has been taught in audio classes for decades - DO NOT PUT 2 CENTER CHANNELS IN!!!
This causes comb filtering. Which is bad! If you think you don't hear a difference, you haven't demoed it (A/B) to yourself to hear.

Brendon,
I know you use to have a good 2ch setup at your house. Do you have something setup you can play with this, to see for yourself. Especially listen how the sound changes dramatically from seat to seat with 2 centers installed vs. 1. If you have an RTA, look at the comb effect it is creating to the response.
I promise you, you will never mistreat a customer by doing that again.

And I have seen several dealers do it, just to sell an additional speaker. Knowing full well it was wrong to do.

I promise you, I can count on two fingers the times I’ve had todo it. It was a living room, both clients I KNEW would put in all channel after I finished. For most living room surround sound systems, nobody cares. If this was more of a nice setup where it would of mattered I would have never done this.
The Bitterness of Poor Quality is Remembered Long after the Sweetness of Price is Forgotten! - Benjamin Franklin
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