Ok,

Now that we've established that wire means exactly squat in the total system equation...it's onto the speakers!

Now I have been doing this lately primarily to stimulate some intellectual discussion amongst my peers! In a way, my goal is to attempt to ascertain just how BROAD the spectrum of knowledge, perception, practice and BS is in our industry....

So here we go...

GIVEN ALL OTHER COMPONENTS ARE THE SAME...SOURCE, PRE/PRO, CABLES...

Is there any scientific, theoretic, or preferential reason why a $165,000 (USD) pair of speakers (such as Wilsan WHAMM's or X-1's) should, would or could sound different, better, or worse than a pair of well built speakers at a tenth of the price?

You see, it's open ended, and intended to educate...so lets go!

avdude
site admin
www.intgrationpros.com

I can't wait to hear the responses to this thread. The best sounding speakers I ever heard were a pair of Martin Logan's (not $165K but on up there in price). Were they UNBELIEVEABLE sounding? Yep. But were they XXX (more than $20K) dollars better than the top of the line speaker I'm used to? Not so sure about that. Speakers are so subjective, but if you are a multi-millionaire ... $165K speakers make since. There is only so much money you can spend in a lifetime, if your loaded. Is a Bentley, Rolls Royce, Austin Martin etc. ... that much better than the top of the line BMW?

Is a Bentley, Rolls Royce, Austin Martin etc. ... that much better than the top of the line BMW?
-----------------------------------------------

NO.

They may be extremely nice cars, but they suffer from having Lucas electronics on them. Lucas is the only electronics supplier that makes Fiat electronics look GOOD... muahahahaha

Lucas is all substandard crap... there's a special place in hell reserved for Mr Lucas- the SOB that invented the accordian is on one side, and Amar Blose is on the other!




It's not the $165,000 speakers that will kick your ass with their sound- it's the million dollar acoustically perfect room they're installed in that will blow your mind.

Anything but Blose or Earthquake in-walls (or other low quality stuff) will sound good in an acoustically perfect room with perfectly placed speakers...

Well, the speakers I will buy when I hit the loto will be "GENELEC" hands down. Are they worh the price, hell no not retail anyway, but at cost I have to say they are verry close. When you consider the quality of the amps in there and the crossover system they are worth alot. Now as far as the center being worth 11,000 that is probly perception on someones part. But my favorites none the less. I like the ML too but I saw a knockoff at the CEDIA show that were alot cheaper so I have to wonder if Electrostat technology has some profit built in.

For conventional speakers (cabinets) NO. Once you get past a quality cabinet, good crossovers and drivers it is all a bunch of hooey! I used to take home speakers from reps to "Interview" in my own space. I would take them apart and look, most of the time (even M&K)would use a cheap wire inside the box and a basic crossover not worthy of the "Tandy" logo.


Basicly my points are
1. Most expensive speakers are expensive to quantify there quality. BOSE uses this approach, "if they cost more they must be better"

2. Most expensive speakers are hand made (Wham etc.)the price has to pay the staff for a year even tho they make only a dozen sets or so.

In my view any box (conventional) that costs (dealer) more than 1k each has alot of hype and I have never seen a thousand dollars worth of "Internal bracing" considering most speakers use off the shelf drivers, (Vifa etc.) I mean c'mon, this technologie has bin worked out for a long time, it has like 2 moving parts, and it is not even difficult by todays standards to build drivers and cabinets to excating standards.


A scientific study done at a major university has shown that speakers with a red grill have more bass than the same speaker with a blue grill. I think the tearm is Psycoacoustics.

There is no question however that hi-end speakers sound "Better" than radio shak units, if "Better" is the correct term, I think "Different" is a better term?

Anyone here really sell a ton of $800 B&W in-walls? I do hear a "Difference" but I cant really say they are better than a good set of sonance or TruAudio in this day and age.

Just my .02

In point one you say Bose are expensive i havent seen a Bose speaker at $165,000.Bose has better sound through research and found they didnt need to go stupid with exotic materials and that theres sounded better anyway.

In point Two if Bose were all hand made they would be more expensive and because Bose is THE biggest speaker company in the World they can pass that saving on to there loyal, grateful customers.

When a company gets big every one wants a pop at them the numbers speak for them selves ask Microsoft ,Disney, Bose,Mc Donalds. I bet a lot of you here hate at least Two of the four companys i just mentioned but all have loyal happy customers not riddled with bitterness and jealousy.

People like different things its time you Bose bashers excepted this.


To answer the original post i would of course go for BOSE.

This message was edited by ILOVE BOSE on 11/26/03 06:26.

I have read the original post several times and my considered opinion is that i have never heard one brand of speaker sound EXACTLY like another brand (unless they are re badged ) for example B&W sound different to Ruark so yes there are differences that are audible.
Having been in retail i often did speaker demos using the same equipment.

Weather its better or worse is down to opinion.

Personally the most realistic sounding speakers to my ears are the B&W Nautalis. There are lots of technical reasons why B&W say they are better but again that’s down to opinion.
All I can say is to me they sound "real"

Having said that because of the unusual way these speakers need four mono power amplifiers per speaker its hard to find other speakers that have these requirements to do a true A/B speaker test .and by the time you properly set up the second pair, moved the old ones out of the room you most probably forgot exactly what they sounded like.
To see the difference between technically and reality see here

[Link: remotecentral.com]

ILOVEBOSE...

This is not the right thread for ANYTHING like the drivel you are spewing...

You are in INCREDIBLY well educated company here...and your points (as well as most of your speakers) fall on deaf ears in the custom install industry...go spew your mindless crap somewhere else...

Or maybe go sue the "Lifestyles" Condom Company...btw, I used to used those, and THEY worked very well....

avdude

For music I like the Proac Response range of speakers. I like the Quad electrostatics as well. I am about to try out PMC. Any comments on those?
Home theater preferences are B&W Nautilus and Meridian. I have never heard anything in surround music or theater that comes near Meridian. For you engineers Meridian systems are your perfect example of crappy wire sounding good(pure digital signal all the way to the speakers)

This message was edited by Shoe on 11/26/03 08:38.

As we all know... If all components were the same... Bose would sound absolutely terrible. Ever hook a jewel cube up to straight amplification? They need their electronic EQ tricks to make the speakers sound halfway decent (note I said halfway) and flat out tell you NOT to hook it up any other way.

I recently went through Bose training and was impressed by two things. First... the trainer acknowledged fully that his speakers were NOT the best sounding things on the planet... in no way shape or form did he blow smoke up our butts. Second... he put buckets over the speakers and ran ADAPT-IQ. The speakers actually sounded better after done (although still not anything I'd ever put in my own house). Removing the buckets... the highs cut right through your ears. This system (the AV-28) will sell a lot of units to the 65% of the people in the midrange of the audio video buying bell curve. With the marketing behind it there is no amount of Bose bashing that will stop this force. We, as business people, decide where we want to be. The posters on these threads that are in the business are for the most part, working with the 5-10% at the upper end of the AV buying bell curve... Bose should not even be mentioned here in this area. All I know is that an easy sale... to a tin eared client is sometimes just what the money doctor ordered and if the upper end that I target isn't presently buying on any of my bids... whether I'm considered a sell out or not... I'll take an easy foray into the 65% area and feed my kids... sorry.

As for speakers...if all components are the same... just about every speaker brand on the planet will sound different. The engineers color the sound of speakers with crossovers to achieve the sound they are after. I just went to a demo of JMLabs Grande Utopias and can honestly say that what I heard was the most all encompassing " in the hall with the symphony" sound I've ever heard. My brother in law asked me if I considered it worth it. My response was yes... if I was worth about 50 mil it would be a drop in the bucket and I'd have them... in the room next to my million dollar theatre adjacent to my garage with the Mercedes and the Hummer. Since I am but a lowly installer though... a set of their Cobalt series sounds just fine to me.

I don't know what our debate is here... its all relative and very subjective. A metalhead (like Me) likes a different sound than a Classical music lover (like Me). I find it hard to pin down a set of speakers due to a broad spectrum of musical tastes. I love bass but not rap style... just the kind you feel during bass guitar lines and tympanis. When the wife gets involved it also gets down to aesthetics.

The last thing to consider is to go over your own experiences when picking speakers. While you were shopping... it was intense... you picked apart every detail. Now that you have them in your house you listen to them when you get the time and all is well... you probably don't have time to keep listening and replacing (if you do... please find an installer other than me!)

HE'S RIGHT...BOSE ARE EXPENSIVE FOR WHAT THEY ARE...WHICH IS REDICILOUS, SINCE THE DRIVERS COST $11.00 AT RADIO SHACK, AND ARE MADE BY MOTOROLA (I THINK THEY'RE THE SAME ONES IN THE NEXTEL SPEAKER PHONES.) IF YOU LIKE THE PART NUMBER, I HAVE POSTED IT NUMEROUS TIMES HERE.


How is the company that makes the smallest speakers in the world the BIGGEST speaker company in the world? And I would HIGHLY doubt that BLOSE is the largest...I would venture it's Phase Technologies, or more specifically, their parent company (name eluding me right now) who designed and patented the silk dome tweeter years ago, and now provides somewhere in the neighborhood of 85% of ALL speaker drivers in the world (obviuosly, Motorola makes the Blose driver however)


Sure they do...and I doubt anyone here harbors the animosity for MS, Disney or McDonalds that they do for Blose...


People like what they're told to like...Sony, Bose, Nike, Ford, Budweiser....big marketing equals mind control!!!! Why do shop at Wal-Mart instead of K-Mart? Because Wal-Mart crawls down my throat at least 100 times a day...can't remember the last time I saw a K-Mart add...I don't use Sony because there are better, more reliable products out there, and not quite as expensive...I drink Coors because I like the way it tastes better....and Ford, let's just say I can get a simalarly equipped GM product for around 8K less per vehicle, and a Dodge for around 12K less...Nike, I wear ONLY because they fit my feet right (I have flat feet, and the arches in Nike shoes feel the best). I HATE PAYING FOR A COMPANIES MARKETING, AND GETTING INFERIOR OR MATCHABLE-FOR-LESS-MONEY-PRODUCTS!!! Now look at Frontier and Southwest Airlines...great product, great customer service, tons of marketing...CHEAP by comparison to less performing competitors....


Well, you didn't in anyway answer the original post, and I'm sorry that you've chosen a forum full of engineers and installers to spew in...it was not what I had in mind at all.

The question mentioned, source componentry, a pre-pro, cables....not an all in one box...which blose doesn't have...

Would you REALLY spend say 45K on a dedicated theater/listening room, acoustics, etc...and put a Blose system in?

Have you ever really listened to yourself in the morning on the crapper....you know whan you fart....go turn your bass module on it's side and sit over the tube, then fart again...I would bet money it's the same sound! They are both coming out of colons....

I implore you to go demo some Anthony Gallo Acoustics, or some Morel SoundSphere's or some Energy Take (5's I think)....IF you can be objective, you wil not believe what you're hearing from systems the same SIZE as those friggin cubes, for about 1/2 the cost...complete WITH a real CD/DVD player and REAL DolbyDigital, DTS surround receiver....

Thanks,

avdude
www.integrationpros.com

This message was edited by avdude on 11/26/03 09:34.

I tried those once... they were too small!

I was just using them on my fin...ohhh never mind...that just hurts my ego!!!

avdude

Count me in for a set of the really tall Dynaudio(Evidence) speakers, I'll take a set of those in the always elusive "ideal money no object world".

Right on AVDUDE, I wanna see a CEDIA theater finalist in the $25,000 - $50,000 range (or any range for that matter) with a lifestyle system in it, that would keep me amused for the rest of the year.

I will say this for the question. It should possibly be rephrased do "Optimized" speakers sound any different from one another? Since we have already discussed that bose is not optimized with a standard rcvr, and needs it precious EQ, someone mentioned Genlec wich is obviously optimized by it's own amps rather than our ideal outboard amp. And that amp may be best suited for 8 ohm loads and therefore blows on the world's best 4 ohm speakers. blah blah blah.

I understand your question and what you meant by it and agree with a whole lot about what you have said, but let's be fair to the Bose ID 10 T's and talk about setups optimized for speakers.

That being said can you throw enough equalization, and perfect room tuning at just about anything worthwhile (read NOT BOSE) and get the same result, I dunno, maybe.

Ya know, on a side not my favorite speakers without internal amplification would have to be "James". These look and sound magnificient.

And Bose is verrrrry expensive when you are using them in a football stadium on top of a tall ass pole. I have to say they were really loud and somewhat impressive! Of course the real magic was in the "Bose" amps with build in crossover cards. The speaker was a whole bunch of 4' deivers in an array.

I dont hate bose, I have installed alot of it, I just know the truth about what good marketing is, the "Bose" name and rep will sell itself to the 50 something houswife faster than I can ever sell her a comparably priced B&W in wall.

I dont sell bose now, I have no relation with them in this company. I would sell it if they would let me tho, Im in this for the money, I admit it! This is what I do for money to eat. I really do HATE the torment you go thru to install a built invisible system tho.

I'm disappointed ... Why in the hell is Bose even being discussed here? ... Bose is junk ... that's not subjective ... IT'S FACT ... Bose CAN NOT reproduce certain frequencies (Highs and Lows) ... their drivers are made from inferior products etc. ... their setups in retail stores are WITCHCRAFT (I don't know that I've ever seen a HT room that's 4' X 4') ... Let's hear more about great speakers and why they are great ...