Adele, I sent you a private message...

I think Adele makes the point that I tried to stress as being important... you work with the people that you like to work with and on the terms you agree with. Some people don't want to make their work "open source" others do. Be respectful of the terms that people want to work with, as this is a profession, not a hobby for us. I think it is in bad taste to talk about monetary details on a public forum, I know of lots of outfits who charge very reasonable "use" licenses, nothing approaching the tens of thousands of dollars that are being thrown around here like it is the norm or something.

Lets say for example a customer, asks you for the program/file. So you give it to him. Big deal, he paid for it. If he took that file and gave it to another installer/programmer, it would have to be 1 of 2 reasons

A. He's a cheap arse, and he found someone cheaper
B. You did something wrong and ruined your business relationship.

Either way it's a win win if you ask me, as long as you are a professional, with good ethics. If you treat a customer right, he will be loyal. Granted there's always at least 1 pain in the arse customer, who doesn't derserve your services. But thats the natire of the beast, and it's like that in every angle of the professional world.

If he's an el cheapo, then so be it. You probly don't want to get deeply involved with someone like that.

If you don't deserve his or her business, then live and learn.

A private message to me from Alan. He sent it privately. I have no problem sharing it.




Have you ever done a large job or is your expertise limited to installing antennas and programming Prontos? You contually pontificate on matters that you clearly don't have any understanding.

There are many matters you do not discuss with a client at the time you are making proposals. It is neither dishonest nor dishonorable not to bring up issues that have no baring on the relationship at that moment and which can most certainly sour a relationship before it begins.

When you married did you discuss the possibility you and your wife could later divorce? It is not something you bring up. Yet you continually insert yourself into discussions, such as software or serial control about which you know absolutely nothing. You make judgements about these matters about which you are signularly unqualified.

Now you are suggesting that those of us who do these installations commit professional suicide. Given that you have so much time on your hands why not make some attempt to a. imporove your vocabulary and b. develop some understanding about advanced control systems. If ignorence is bliss you most be among the happiest of individuals.

Alan

My response, just written here:
I don't have the time now, nor will I make the time, to go back to the statements you made telling us that the client needs to be educated, and the remarks that imply that you don't want to educate the client about all of these issues...the only thing I remember in particular was you saying the client would balk.

Okay.

by the way, ignorance is not spelled ignorence. Freudian slip?

Yes of course you discuss divorce. In my country ( I now live in USA ) we had an anti nuptial contact drawn up for such matters. Not sure how it works here.
The "plane going down" analogy was brought up after 9/11 (sad fact) so in actual fact Ive been working with my current programmer for nearly 8 years.
I think the industry has a very bad wrap and this is caused by instances such as customers being hijacked by programmers. Its not really up the programmers to get with the program "so to speak"
I believe it is up to the companies like AMX or Crestron to get the right model. I have tons of friends in the residential field who want automated systems but when they are faced with these issues they just dont want to get involved. AMX or Crestron should have their dealers put all programs in an "escrow" account and based on their discretion should value each case on a by case basis. If the customer has not paid for his stuff then thats a different story.
None of what I have is absolutely necessary (once again Im not a business) I do it all for fun and for me its more of a hobby. When it stops being that I will stop adding or upgrading.
Dont get me wrong my programmer and I have often had really big arguments about certain stuff. But in the end its a business relationship. He charges me by the hour, I want what I want and I pay him for it.
SIMPLE..I think.

When I commissioned a Web service provider to help me create a new site, one of the first questions I asked was: what happens if you go out of business or the relationship just doesn't work out. Can I somehow migrate the data? A "no" answer would have been a deal-breaker.

It wouldn't so much be about the money as the hassle. It would be a HUGE investment of my time and energy to collaborate on the site, and I would cry if I had to start all over.

Now, think of what a homeowner must endure to get a good system up and running. Must they go through it again if the plane goes down?!

Julie and programmers..
ok its snowing here and ive got nothing to do so ive been thinking about this.
1. You cant bring in Microsoft here.
a. They encourage you to do backups.
b. They let you into their registry settings albeit with a disclaimer
c. They do have tech support (however useless it is) for EVERY person who uses
their product.
d. Any decent IT guy can come in and fix your system.
2. It is AMX and Crestron (dont know much about Crestron used to have it..gave it
up for AMX so yes Ive made my share of mistakes too) that have made their use
proprietary and charge their dealers to sell their programs, hardware and educate
them. So is it up to AMX and Crestron to protect their customers and in turn
their dealers customers should something go awry.

Im only speaking from experience and in my case AMX did come in to save the day. Otherwise I probably at that point might have trashed my system.

Only recently was I dealing with a very "reputable" AMX dealer who I used only to repair some faulty hardware. They then fired the person I was dealing with and would not stand by his old customers. So again I was left up the creek. All I could see was endless phone calls back and forth which I have very little stomach for. Not fun in my book. So (and this is going to annoy all of you but again I was left with little choice) I went onto ebay, purchased the hardware at a fraction of what it would cost to fix let alone buy. I installed it and was back and running in no time.

Ernie is entitled to publish private communications since they were sent to him. It is still bad form. However, by publishing a private communication Ernie is demonstrating that a. he is a scumbag. b. that he has little honor and no integrity and c. he still has no clue about what he has written.

He would do better to spend his declining years pouring over a vocabulary handbook, or a book on introductory philosophy. You can spell. Bully for you. Would that you had once learned to think.

Normally, stupidity earns a spot on my ignore list. Ernie has purchased a new category for himself.

Karma be with you and with some luck you will reap what you have sown.

Don't bother to respond to me as nothing you write from this point forward will be read by me.

Alan

Julie, I bet you never expected this thread to take on such a "lively" tone! LOL.

I have stated my opinion on the matter previously, and I have been watching this thread with great anticipation for each new post.

I now have a few things to say. I come here to learn, and chat, just like the rest of you. I have much respect for the people here. All of them. In several of the last posts, there have been some unkind remarks about some of us, by others of us. I say "us", because we are all in this together. Our opinions and knowledge matter to all of us.

I think some of the posts directed at Alan, while maybe true, to a degree, have been pretty hostile. I also think that the posting of "Private Messages" is in poor taste. It's called a Private Message, because it is just that. Let's remember that this is a public forum after all, and if you want to say anything that is inflammatory, or degrading, keep it off the public part. It doesn't do any good for any of us to get so angry that we lose our sense of reason. There is no reason to lose friendships, be they virtual or real, over any of this stuff!

Now.....we have heard from business owners, programmers, end users, some contract experts, and some legal expersts, and publishers. What's missing? Oh yes, now I see.....what's missing is any "Official" remarks from the owner's of the software in question. Has anyone contacted AMX or Crestron, or Universal Remote Control, or RTI and asked them these questions? I guess not. Even I am guilty of this. I have stated my opinion, and eagerly read all other's opinions. But no one has reached out to the manufacturer's for their input.

I am emailing URC tonite, and pointing to this thread. I will ask them to weigh in on the matter either on this forum, or in an email to me, which will be published here by me as soon as I recieve it. (I will state in my email to URC that any answers are going to be published on this thread.)

I would like to think that all of us are willing to learn the truth. If we learn we are wrong, I would like to think that we are able and willing to change. And I would like to think that if we learn we are right, we can be not smug, but humble.

This is a forum for "us", and by "us". Let's not forget though, that the public is allowed here, and fighting and just plain nastiness doesn't paint any of us in a good light. Our industry is changing...our business models might have to change too. But our sense of commradery, and our sense of humor must never change.

I hope I haven't bored any of you.

Mike

thanks for your rational comments, Schuey.

I have contacted all the relevant vendors -- and so far I've spoken with the ones whose programming environments are more open than others.

I have a Friday interview with Crestron and setting one up with AMX.

I would never blame them for the practices of their dealers. They cannot be the ones mediating disputes.

However, I'm sure they have recommended practices for their dealers and I aim to find out what they are. Ultimately, they suffer the most damage when a dealer strands a good customer.

Other than a few short early comments boy am I glad I resisted staying out of this thread. When I read some (many?) of the posts in this thread what bothers me is what I perceive to be a complete and total focus on ones self-interest to the exclusion of all others. I see it as the equivalent of those who insist music should be free and that downloading (STEALING) music is not wrong. And what's the flip-side? Draconian DRM schemes that reveal contempt for the consumer. Where is the middle ground? That's NOT a rhetorical question. Surely there is an intelligent middle ground between "the customer deserves nothing but a delivered working system" and "the customer always deserves all the code without restriction".

Kudos to those who have posted that see a middle ground here and I am especially glad to see this issue finally being brought to the light of day. Julie is doing us a *favor* by bringing attention to the issue. Those who think it is in our best interest to continue the status quo are IMO not seeing the whole picture.

BTW, IMO 90% of us who are concerned about out code are "legends in our own minds". No one wants to steal our code! Nevertheless I understand the concern and there are no doubt a few exceptions.

Ernie,
For what it is worth posting a private message is bad form. I have no issue with you personally, nor do I recall us having any spats on this forum or any other for that matter.

How ever posting a private message in public is low, uncool, tacky, and should only be used in ddarche type of moments. What you posted is clearly below your character. You have in my mind always been above reproach on RC until today.

Bad form sir...

I agree with you Julie, the manufacturer also suffers a black eye, when the relationship between client and retailer/programmer goes awry. They must have "recommended practices" dealing with this issue, but in all the trainings I've been to with URC, it has never been discussed. There has been some dancing around the topic, as in they are quick to assure us that the software is protected, and available only to us "authorized dealers" to protect us, and make our services a needed commodity. But ownership of the program has never been discussed.

This is the email I have sent to URC, inviting them to comment on this issue.

Open Letter to URC,

I am a member here on the URC control room, and have been programming your remotes for some time. I have been to many of your trainings. One thing that never gets covered, is ownership of programming.

There is currently a thread running on Remote Central concerning this very matter. The main thrust of the thread concerns AMX and Crestron, since the software is proprietary, and you practically need an engineering degree to write the software to integrate many of the devices they can control. However, URC and RTI have also been named in the thread, because the software is proprietary, and available only to authorized retailers.

The question is, are we as programmers of a system to give the client a copy of the working program, in case the relationship between client and retailer goes bad. Some say yes, and some say no, but there is room for argument on both sides.

I would like a reasonable answer to this question from your company's point of view, given that the software to program the remotes is liscensed, and not available for an end user. Do we as programmers have any rights to our "intellectual property" that we use to design a working system for our clients, or is the client paying for the program, as well as a working system?

[Link: remotecentral.com]

Please have a look at this thread on RC, and respond either publicly on the thread, or to me in an email. Please be advised that any communication you send to me in an email regarding this topic will be posted on that thread.

Thank you in advance for your insight into this issue.

Sincerely,
Michael Schumacher

So to clarify, that is an AND statement, not an OR statement, and is also not exclusive of the possibility of more ANDs ;-) :-)?

mike... get rid of your email in the above post.

The email bots will get you....

trust me... ole freaking ddarche screwed me over!

So remove it now bro!

PS: Good letter by the way.