Wow, this thread has gone crazy.

I wasn't interested in the legal issues -- although they're interesting. Anything can be spelled out in the contract.

What started this thread was the fact that I've gotten several calls from consumers recently whose integrators went out of business and they wouldn't provide source code.

It is truly heart-breaking to hear their stories.

They did all the research before selecting a "reputable" integrator. They spent a ton of money on system integration. One guy wanted to add a blu-ray player to the system and was told it simply couldn't be done without starting from scratch - reprogramming every macro, every subsystem, etc. The new integrator would have to re-interview the customers, re-examine all of the connections, integrate devices that they don't usually work with, redo everything. It would take an enormous amount of time and money. People don't enjoy that the first time around, so who wants to go through it all over again?!

Do you think they'll recommend automation to their friends?

Is that the kind of reputation we want for our industry?

I'm getting slammed here because I happen to be such a huge advocate for the channel, and especially Crestron and AMX.

Think of me as a regular old consumer reporter. Can you rationally help me understand why my readers should not be given the keys to their system after they are paid in full? If I am the customer and I ask you this question, what is your reply in lay terms?

I will be fair and present both sides of the argument.

thank you

The customer should be told that the AMX and Crestron source code that compiles the actual program that runs their control system will be needed for any future modifications of the control system. The dealer should either include this source code with the price of programming, or, if there are proprietary programming modules and graphics in the source code, it should be made available to the customer at fair market value.

A customer runs a large risk if they do not have the source code for their control system. As seen in the recent economic environment, any company can have problems.

The solution to this problem is escrow accounts where the client pays for his software being stored.

If a client actually payed for the real time it took to code his system I'd be far less argumentative on the subject. The fact is that programming is subsidized out of other line items. If their real price of the programming was 30K but the client has a line items, not in hours, but as a lump sum, of 12K then how can our legal mind suggest the code is owned by the client?

I have written code that works and had it fail to work due to manufacturer's firmware upgrades. I have had to fix that code. Who pays? Certainly not the client. He sees it as my cost of doing business. I have recently had a problem where the correct written code did not work due to an error on the manufacturer's part. They admitted the error ( does me little good in terms of wasted time trouble shooting ) but also wrote for me a work around. Honest and honorable manufacturer. But who pays for the lost time it took to get code that made that system work?

Let us admit honestly that most all of us work upon a paradigm that is no longer functional. Labor, including all time to install and program a project, has long been subsidized by equipment profits. But as margins string to nil, this paradigm no longer works. No client will YET pay hourly for these services. Plumbers get to charge hourly but we must present a fixed price.

Moreover, many models foolishly permit the client to determine when the coder is finished. If you are unlucky enough to be imprisoned by such a client you may find yourself having to modify code for which they will later decline to pay ( It was part of the job, they will argue ), alter GUI code, change fonts, text, and move buttons 1/100 of an inch. You will be told that macros we all use need to be "fixed" to provide more or different features--again without pay because "you took the job to provide me with this system."

I do agree that some sunlight needs to be lit upon this. But the fact is that there are far more unscrupulous clients then unscrupulous dealers. A dealer who goes out of business or a small dealer who dies are occurrences that happen but it is rare. More common, is the client who uses his financial clout to coerce services from the dealer that are not the responsibility of the dealer. Cable boxes that don't work become our responsibility even though we don't supply them or have any control over their operation. We need to be on site when mill work is installed to ensure that wires are pulled to where they need to be. We put lightning systems on line before the real fixtures are installed and when they are later installed we are told we have to warranty the system. When does it stop? When the client agrees his job is finished. A client pays for a job. When the equipment is installed and functioning to his satisfaction he pays, in theory. We all know that the final 10 per cent can be impossible to collect.

Does it not follow that a client is paying for a working system at the time of that system's installation?

The two solutions to this issue have been suggested. Place the source code in escrow accounts with the client responsible for any and all fees to store the code.
Have the client pay for the code. 7500 for the code that took 100's of hours to write for clients with net worth exceeding the GNP of some city governments is hardly exorbitant.

How about educating clients, Julie, into how much time and effort goes into a job Julie? As the legal eagle above demonstrates, most of us don't stand a chance because law is not about what is right but about who has the might. In every case the mighty are those who have the money. Instead of stoking the fears of clients about situations that happen so infrequently why not educate the public into the real costs of the software operating their system?

Alan

Alan, in lay terms?

My friend has an XYZ system and his installer went out of business. Now he is faced with having to start from scratch. Now you are trying to sell me an XYZ system?? What happens if you go out of business or I just don't like you?

Now Julie,, Why would you not like a very strong opinionated person like Alan. I mean if you just happen to be from a Blue or Red state...... LOL

On the serious side THE CUSTOMER is the most important person not our egos. If we are always looking in the rear view mirror we are sure to end up in the ditch.

If the project is paid in full I will hand deliver the code.

1. Your friend was an idiot to buy a programmed system without getting the source code.



2. He is screwed.



3. You're an idiot if you buy the system without the source code or you won't buy the system because your friend was an idiot.

ILO

Thanks for painting such a nice picture. Not only is he/she a Idiot but screwed...

I would say 95% of the customers don't have a clue about the source code until such an event happens.

I wounder how many dealers who are so protective of their code actually bring it up to the customer with a pay 'extra' for the code... How many are honest? Truly honest?

Only a very small % I bet.

All the ones on this forum, please be honest with your peers and show us a document where you have been practicing this 'dealing with the code'. Talk is cheap but who is real and honest.

What happens if microsoft goes out of business. What will we do with all these PC's?

Julie-

Im not sure the issue is cut and dry enough for you to write an article based solely on opinion (either personal or from users on this site). Thats just not good journalism. As I am sure you are aware, a good journalist would provide and unbiased point of view without introducing personal emotion to the story which you have developed from the phone calls. Facts.

Thats not to say I personally have a clear opinion on the issue.

The client is investing time and money for a control system interface. Much like a business would pay for a website. Does the business get a copy of the web page source code for other developers to adjust and tinker with if the business has a falling out with the original developer?

Now, from the customer point of view there are a lot of flakes in this industry and the customer doesnt deserve to have to reprogram the entire system again.

The CI doesnt want to get into the discussion with a client about purchasing an solution vs purchasing code developed over years and why it may be priced different. We avoid these topics simply because we already have the client overwhelmed with technology and details that any additional discussion could short circuit the clients brain.

Maybe the companies could lock every file where the end user has to call up and explain your specific case to Crestron or AMX (company went out of busines etc) and the CI has the ability to counter with contracts or other data and then it is up to Crestron to release the file by providing a unique key based off a keygen to unlock the file and allow uploading. Thats not perfect, but it may work.

You are correct. This is why Julie gets the phone calls.

This whole matter is a non-issue if the person that presents the system to the customer properly explains the programming they are providing.

I disagree with posters who say it is too complicated to bring up during the sale. I bet they just don't want to have to deal with one more potential objection. Maybe they shouldn't be in sales.

The only thing that I am pissed about is, that with all the contacts that Julie has... she actually purchased a tv from one of those on line dirt bags.


That freaking sucks......

Why dont you right about that in EH? Why if your experience was so bad you talk about how no one should ever buy from those people?

Who would have thought.......

This is all too typical of the type of meaningless responses I see in these threads.

39 Cent,

Please read the license agreement that ships with any computer or copy of any Microsoft product. It clearly states what you receive, in most cases, a license to use the software provided on a single computer system. It also clearly states what you are not given, no source, no right to reverse engineer, or modify.

I nor Julie has stated how you can run your business.

I assume Julie has received many requests from customers stranded by CI's, that now have systems where programming would have to be, started from scratch. Think of yourself in this customer's shoes: How would you like to buy a home control system, only a year later to find out that the business you worked with is gone, and adding a single new DVD player, means you are looking at hundreds or thousands of dollars of reprogramming?

I believe that to protect themselves, that installers need to clearly state what the software license presented to their customers consists of.

I think Julie simply wishes to educate people to the issues that are important in such a discussion.

I don't understand why any CI who isn't trying to take advantage of their customers wouldn't welcome a customer who is better educated.

You can suck it! I could sell your ass under the table. Especially since I was giving a reason why most people would not want to bring it up not myself. Its idiotic to suggest that you should look for objections.

Corey

I know you could. Even without giving me the source code. ;)

I am suggesting the sales person properly educate the customer (which is why Julie created this post) rather than being afraid of any particular objection. When properly educated, the customer will not object.