Sean -- I would be happy to do business with you.

Craig

People seem to be forgetting the reality that all these items sold on Ebay are on the "black market." I wanted to get all pissy about it too until a buddy reminded me of that term, black market.

Butt heads who go behind URC's back and sell on Ebay are hurting URC. And URC hates its, I'm sure. There's a big difference between "URC won't do anything about it" and "URC doesn't give a shit."

Look at all the bitching and moaning in this forum. That hurts URC. Everybody's getting their yap in about how URC should put a stop to Ebay sales. All I know is, I wouldn't want to be in the position of having to go out and police this if it were my company. What are the guys over at URC supposed to do, go beat the living daylights out of...

...oh wait...


...out of who??? It's the freakin' black market, remember?

Yeah, we can all cry in our wheaties about how they oughtta track the serial numbers and send out Imperial Probe Droids to vapourize every offending dealer. But we've heard right here that they DO track serial numbers and cut off every dealer they catch doing this. But remember that BLACK MARKET part of the equation?

When end users get to the point that they KNOW to shop for RTI or Nevo, you can bet your glistening gemstone gonads that the black market is going to start biting their shiny metal asses, too. Sorry folks... it's supply and demand. If the demand for RTI was higher, they'd be choking down the same nasty economics pill that URC is trying to swallow right now. Same with Nevo. Same with Flintstone's Chewables Vitamins. It's how economics works. The same market force was one of the primary things that tore apart the former Soviet Union. I'm guessing that if Red Square and the KGB couldn't keep toilet paper off the black market entirely, a company with no guns or army is going to have at least as big a challenge doing the same with their remote controls.

Do business with any company long enough and you'll be in a love-hate relationship with them. Right now we've got a lot of former lovers who feel jilted because there's a peeping Tom climbing up to URC's window. While URC is rushing around to get its clothes on, everybody's bitching about how they ought to be pulling down the shade.

I've lost business on this too, folks. But I've also gone to CEDIA and talked with people at URC face to face. Meet any of those guys, shake their hands, and you'll know that they are dedicated to making this a viable market for all of us to make our living. After all, if we fail, they fail. They're vibrantly aware of that.

I've posted here under this name only once before. I said it then, and I'll say it now: if you hate URC, great. Hate away. Knock yourself out. Light a little barbeque and burn up the invoices from all your past URC purchases. And then please, shut the hell up.

Some of us ARE sticking with URC, and we're trying to feed our families doing it. You go feed your families selling RTI, or Nevo, or Charmin, or whatever the hell company you think holds the power of the force and is immune to black market economics. Okay, so you think URC hurt you. Be a good little jilted lover and go find somebody else to sulk to. Because believe me, all your bitching and complaining isn't hurting URC nearly as badly as it hurts me and the other guys in this market who sincerely believe that URC is doing what they can to combat a problem that's literally as old as human civilization. It hurts us, it hurts the entire Remote Central community, and it makes YOU look like a bitter asshole.

Of course, I don't think anything I've said is actually going to shut anyone up, because that supposes that you'll listen to reason. Still, we've had to listen to you gripe, so now it's my turn.

Sincerely,

Gorignak

Black market? There is no black market when URC ships directly to the people who are breaking the rules. As Damon said, it has to do with "Authorized Dealers" getting away with it.


by the way its grey market, you should get some of the fact straight before posting

Authorized dealers are breaking the rules, these are the guys buying direct

This thread needs to Die...

How many times does it have to be said.... VOTE WITH YOUR WALLET. Don't pitch it to your customers. Don't support it when someone gets it from "a buddy" or as "a gift". DON'T WORK WITH IT!

I know some of you are really locked in as its all you can program. Other lines can be learned. Other lines can be picked up.

The jilted lover referance is not that far of. If URC is not willing to take the steps to protect you... move on. You do all sorts of support on here for free. You program the remotes that people get from other "less reputabale" sources once they cant figure out how to. You helping out, in any way, says... "Hey thats OK I really don't mind."

Now is URC hurting you directly... nope. They are not activly taking money out of your pockets or food from your family. But they allow it to happen.

Get a line that will make it possible for you to make a living.

Its just that simple.

I worked for a Cinepro dealer and one interent add under MSRP and you were gone, they bought back the product and you were done. URC is not going to do that. You can moan and piss in this and other threads all you wish.. but it isn't going to change URC or the marketing. Its in Lowes these days isn't it?

Just for referance... EVER F()(#ING Distro I deal with has URC. Thats right 5 different Distros and they have very little overlap. BUT EVERY F'ING ONE HAS URC.

What do you think that means?

Time to start selling other things. That or just take the profit when you can do programing for things people bring to you. So you lost the margin on the sale... PROGRAMING is far more profitable then the straight margin. Well I guess the crummy couple of bucks is like icing... but skip it... GET THE CAKE!

If you were really mad or even willing to do anything about it... you would have dropped the line.

Welcome aboard, Damon!!

Lee- If you spend $300,000 on display equipment I hope you do so because you believe that investment will more than pay for itself. If you have an impressive display, knowledgable sales people and an honest approach to your business I bet you'd agree it is not difficult to turn every qualified prospect that walks through your door into a customer. After all, if the customer made up his mind that he was going to buy on eBay... he already would have.

Building a web site, producing an infomercial, selling on QVC or eBay all require their own investment of time and money. It is naive to think that every eBay seller is pushing grey market goods (and no I am not one of them... I only sell my used gadgets ;-). eBay gives you the ability to reach millions of eyes instantly and it is possible to make some handsome profits by selling high quantities at little profits. There is no advice or tech support which leaves the eBay seller more time to post more auctions, make more money and further reduce overhead. This is the same model that made Walmart & other discounters; and Costco and member stores successful. If you really want to take a stretch I would argue that being on eBay HELPS URC. Take this scenario: a prospect sees the MX3000 on eBay at $699... decides he's not comfortable spending that much money without a warranty so now searches the web to find URC with a $999 MSRP but contacts a few authorized dealers and gets an email special from one at $850. He decides $150 isn't bad and he's sure to get the good service & support. This customer may have otherwise decided that $1000 is over budget so the eBay price made it a more attainable object.

As an average Joe consumer without a disposable income, I find it difficult to justify paying more than double for a very expensive remote. I don't require the services of a custom installer to program my remote. Just because I don't do it for a living doesn't make me an incapable idiot. Consumers are people too! :)

True, but not everyone shares your sentiments. Most people (that I deal with anyway) don't want to mess with it. They just want it to work, and that's why the pay me.

As an owner, I can't name one remote I can sell for more than double what it costs me.

Most consumers feel businesses are out to screw them. There's nothing farther from the truth. My store stays open because of repeat business. If everyone left my store felling like I screwed them, I wouldn't be open very long.

This industry as a whole is viewed very differently from every other industry I can think of. Nobody questions how much wire and conduit costs from an electrician. If the house needs it, it goes in. Nobody expects an electrician to stay past 5:00, where I've found myself at a house at 1:30 in the morning. When people order furniture or appliances they pay for them up-front and are told it could be 6-8 weeks. When we do systems, people think we install it now and get paid in 6-8 weeks. This is our fault as a whole, we allow the expectations to get a little out-of-hand.

What gets me, though, is the fact that consumers now feel we shouldn't make a profit on equipment. I didn't come into this industry to work for sixty years and retire broke. I also realize I'll never be as wealthy as many of my clients are. I only want to make enough to pay my bills and put a small amount in the bank. If I made 15 points on everything I sold, my business would be closed because I have salaries and insurance to pay, gas to put in vehicles, bulbs to light, and TVs, receivers, dvd players, projectors, and speakers to power up.

As a consumer, you have to appreciate what it takes to keep a business like mine and many others here have open. You want us to carry high-end equipment in our stores so you can see and hear it, and you want one in the back ready for you if you decide to buy it. That costs a lot of money. I'm thankful for all my clients, and I can appreciate the fact that they don't want to overpay for products. That's why I don't overcharge for it, but I don't give it away either. I can't keep my business going by programming equipment bought off the internet, so I don't even try.

OUCH........I just fell off my high horse :)

I love URC remotes. I will continue to sell them at the price I've signed the contract to sell them at. I let my clients know that I will not program remotes not purchased from me. I feel really bad that things have gotten so bad that I see some of the most respected names in this forum venting their frustrations. I only hope it gets better.

I live in New Zealand, and have absolutely no prospect of ever getting support from a dealer (Closest authorised is in Australia). As a small business owner myself, I try to support the little guy with good service wherever I can, but doubling the price for an official warranty, with no local dealer support is just horrific. Surely the problem is with the URC-mandated MSRP - if they let you guys advertise at a price you can set yourselves at your discretion, there might at least be the prospect of being in the same ballpark when it comes to pricing.

Speaking to the problem of people getting advice from you, and then buying elsewhere, I have a similar issue with some of my clients (I run a computer consultancy business), who started just getting my knowledge, and ordering elsewhere - why on Earth would you deliberately give them bad advice? Charge them a higher rate than people who buy from you, certainly, or even refuse to assist at all (Personally, I'd give a little advice anyway, but can understand if you're angry about the whole deal), but lying to someone about what to do?

I'd like to vehemently dispute the idea that some of the consumers have expressed in this forum that somehow, custom installers are enjoying excessive profits from their high prices.

I've been involved in the custom installation industry for more than twenty years. I don't know of a single millionaire among them. Custom Installation companies are owned and staffed by hard working, creative and passionate professionals, who make a decent living. They simply don't get rich any more frequently than the plumber, electrician or bookstore owner in your town.

The margins they make on equipment are certainly more than an unauthorized internet retailer who buys "grey" goods. But, custom installers actually have to purchase office space, pay lighting and utility bills, carry insurance, pay for trucks and tools, pay taxes, buy goods from an authorized source, hire installers, and go to training many weeks of the year to become the experts they are.

Like your favorite electrician, your plumber, or your favorite bookstore they have real expenses and provide a solid sense that they will be "there for you" in the future.

Why do "grey" goods cost less, in my opinion?

You can sell "grey goods" on the internet from your mother in law's basement. You don't have any expenses, until you get caught and kicked out...

Where do "grey" goods come from, in my opinion?

Well, it might be something as innocent as a custom installer down on his luck, who charges a few remotes on account with a distributor, then sells them to an internet retailer for less than he paid for them, in the hopes that he can use the cash he gets now, to pay for things he can't charge, and thus stay in business for a few more days, weeks or months.

It also might be something as evil as remotes that "fall off a truck".

The consumer has no way of knowing, when he/she buys from an unauthorized internet seller.

Obviously, there are plenty of people who simply don't care that a seller is "authorized" and want to justify the savings they make with the assumption that Custom Installers overcharge. That the only difference between buying from a Custom Installer and an unauthorized internet retailer is that the grey goods are cheaper.

Well, as many of the Custom Installers on this forum have said, they stand behind the products they sell and can actually service them, program them and certainly answer questions about them. You get what you pay for, period.

No Ebay retailer can do that. They might be in business long enough to replace your "grey" remote control with another "grey" remote control in the year of "warranty" they promise. They might not!

What each consumer should ask themselves is:

1) Will this Ebay retailer "service" the remote after the one year "warrantee"? Will you be content to simply throw away your investment should it need repair after the one year?

2) Do you, as a consumer, really want to encourage people with no expertise, no interest, no passion, no showroom, no expenses at all to make money from your pocketbook? Is the money you save worth the consequences of your act?

In this life, you vote for the future with every action you choose for yourself. Vote for a future of professionals you can trust.

Consider the custom installer, the custom retailer and our authorized web sellers as businesses and people you would like to see contributing to this website and to your pleasure with your purchase for the next few years. They are worth supporting. My vote is with them.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric, with all due respect, you may need to address the "URC does not care" sentiment that some of your very loyal dealers are now expressing. Is there real action in dealing with EACH of the authorized sellers who are going sideways with your product?

Ditto. MSRP is a guide but we sell for what we think is reasonable and allows us to continue in business. I don't double any remote I sell when I show them in a client's home.

Speaking of furniture, did you know that furniture stores sell many items at 2x to 4x what they paid for them? The furninture industry has one of the largest markups of any I know of.

Amen, pay the bills, keep the kids fed, save a little - are the ones complaining about dealer markups the same ones who have their company paying all their medical benefits, retirement benefits, etc - the things small business people struggle to provide?

The way to make $1 million in this business is to start out with $2 million!

Well said. I think most clients understand, but there are always a vocal few who will never understand overhead, and even when explained to them, refuse to accept the explanation. Just move on.

Tom,

I can tell you with complete assurance that we take any complaint against an authorized dealer very seriously. Please, take the time to call or email me with any complaint against a specific dealer. A public forum is not the place to make accusations against any authorized dealer.

URC is not "looking the other way". Our livelihood depends on custom installation professionals, period.

Best Regards,

-Eric

Well, this is my first post, so I'll try not to embarass myself my first time out. :)

This is a really touchy issue, and being that I'm both a consumer, and someone with a bachelor's degree in Economics, I can see both sides.

However, what really bothers me is a lot of the venomous sentiment on the supply side of the chain. Anybody who purposely lies or misleads a consumer, simply because they're shopping around for the best price, should not be in business in my opinion.

Actually, if you keep lying to customers, you'll find that business will dry up before too long, and you'll only have yourself to blame.

For instance, here's an example scenario:

A guy comes into your business, asks a few questions about home theater, then tells you that he will probably be shopping on the internet for stuff because he really doesn't have the funds to buy locally. The reason he has come to you is because you're supposed to be the local 'professional', and he respects your position and wants to get 'good, solid' advice. But, at the mention of the word 'internet', you go into deception mode, and simply tell the consumer half-truths or outright lies, because you refuse to point them in the right direction if you, personally, are not going to get their sale.

So, armed with your deceptive advice, the person constructs their home theater. Now... who do you think they'll be telling about all the 'help' they received from you... 'other' potential customers. Only, if those other potential customers are more tech-savvy than the one you gave erroneous advice to, they're going to see just how slipshod your advice was, and any potential sale (from them) will vaporize into thin air.

In other words, you're cutting your own throat, because word-of-mouth advertising carries about 1000 times more weight to a potential customer than anything they see on TV or hear on the radio. And if someone experiences a botched install based on your lies to a customer, you can rest assured that they'll tell everybody they know not to shop with you because your advice (and probably installation skill as well) sucks.

The professionals above that mentioned a tiered pricing structure based on whether or not they sold the product to the customer have my complete respect. THIS is how you handle internet shoppers... you don't deliberately lie to them out of spite... you simply make them pay a bit more so that the pricing kinda evens out.

As Bob Dylan said "The times, they are a' changin'...", and brick-and-morter stores are going to have to figure out how to compete with bare-bones internet sales, and your primary weapons are as follows:

1. Value-add (a customer gets 'more' by purchasing from you)
2. Tiered pricing for labor
3. Professionals on-call for help.
4. Personal attention.

These things can't be bought online, and most people I know will pay premium for them. In my opinion, this is where brick-and-morter businesses should be focusing their advertising dollars, on convincing people that while they may pay a premium over buying something online, they get far more value (above and beyond the higher price) in customer service, than they would buying a gray market item from a faceless online vendor.

As an aside, I don't have a whole lot of cash, so I bought on ebay (an MX-500). However, I'm a tech geek and actually find this to be an adventurous undertaking... so I'm not the type of customer you'd really want anyway (not much potential to make money from me after the purchase).

Just keep in mind that the retailer's job is to try to balance price and value, and if you can't compete on price, then you have to compete on value. You can't constantly b*tch and complain to the manufacturer that they need to 'protect' you, because really, you need to protect yourself. Thousands of other retailers can stay in business without protection, why can't you do it?

The internet is changing the way everybody does business, and you either adapt, or you find yourself going the way of the dinosaur.

That's my opinion anyway... I hope I didn't step on any toes, I just wanted to offer my opinion. You're welcome to disregard it if you wish. ;)