120 + 120 = 240 here in middle of the country as well...

Phase issues are a great place to start.

Have you done a load test on that outlet?? Maybe there is a bad connection that shows up as a voltage drop under load.

Try attaching some big halogen jobsite lights to one of the plugs, and then throw the meter on the other. Check it with the load and without to see if there is any drop. Do this on a few outlkets around the house and see if that circuit drops more than any others.

If so, check that the sparky used the screw terminals and not the push in termination on the receptacles. These rely on a little srping, and are in no way as reliable as the screw terminals. Also, check any wire nuts (no pun intended) to see if the splices are solid. Next, check the terminations at the panel.

Oh, and Wire Nuts?? You're solution for writing and composition is as simple as an HTML command...
[PARA] text [/PARA]

(lol)

This thread brings up an interesting question.. Wire Nuts mentioned that the same electricians are running to close to his stuff... I almost always schedule my jobs so that I come in either after the electrician or just prior to his finishing. I had one job that I wired first, and I happened to go back out to the job prior to sheetrock to find that the electrician ran power thru my holes.
I informed the homeowner, who in turn informed the electrician, who moved his in turn wires.
Do allot of you complete your prewire before the electrician?
I also have a very good relationship with the electricians, with all of the trades for that matter.. It makes good business sense to have a good relationship with the other trades.

Wire nuts...

Try as best as you can to meet with the electrician before the work is started and try to do your work AFTER his work. At the very least be on his tail of work. That way you can be assured that your wires will not be affected by someone else.

This is not always going to be the case as your schedule might not match his, but I can assure you that most electricians are trained and are experts in delivering electricity. We on the other hand must deliver audio, video, IR, cable and Sat, telephone and LAN, RF and cameras etc.

And we have to deliver all these things without a hitch and then we have to pay our bills and ourselves.

I work very hard at nailing down good relationships with all involved from the beginning, and I never EVER let a project go forward without getting to know the electrician.

In my area of the world the electricians rule the path of the wire...and they should because of code issues. From there, I work with them to avoid conflicts and though there may be some code issues I need to adhere to as well, I usually have a smooth sailing...but only if I am willing to be a partner with all involved.

Wire Nuts....I understand your frustration, but be better at working with every one as a team. Engineer the project with problems in mind before you get to the site. And know that some of the jobs will drive you crazy.

A lot of pre planing will save you more money in the end to spend on beer to calm the nerves ..................and that is good.

If the electrician is running wire too close to your low voltage wire, am I to assume you run your wires before the electrician?

I always come after the electrician. When does everyone usually start the pre-wire?

Alan, I love it. That almost sounds like an excuse in case you are sounding too harsh.

The "ya know" was just too subtle. I MEANT that: It doesn't add up, and never has, which never made sense to me. I mean, we call it 120. Do you know anyone who calls it 115? (I do, but this was a guy who insisted on calling our saber saw a "Skil saw" because it was made by the Skil Corporation.) I have measured it and sometimes it is 120 volts, but we also call phase to phase 230 volts. I haven't ever needed to measure that, so I don't know what it really is. 120 + 120 = 230 if there are phase differences between the two, but I don't expect that to be the case. And we have seen products specced for 110, 115, 117, and 120 volts, so ?? Larry? Calling Larry!


Electrical wiring usually takes larger holes and (if it is not all Romex) the wiring routes are way more limited than low voltage ones can be. After doing some low voltage before the electrician, then having to move them because I had used the only spot the electrician could go, I started insisting on doing low voltage after the electrical was in place.

About six months ago, we showed up when scheduled to start prewire. The owner was there. LOTS of electrical was not done. Hell, a major wall in the kitchen wasn't done, and a side wall of the house was not permanently tied to the house! In about five minutes I was ready to walk off the job, but got convinced maybe we could do SOME wiring...we ended up going for it. Before the electrician. Who then ran some ten to fifteen romexes parallel to our wires and about two inches away, for twenty feet, and even pulled through some of the holes we made. The general contractor had hired an electrician who spoke mostly Spanish, but that made little impression on the Chinese electrician who actually did the work. We had repeated and repeated that the electrical could not be run close to or parallel to our work, so the electrician had to change out a bunch of wire.

The electrical should be done first. For an absurd example of how our wiring is so much more flexible than routing of another trade, imagine running low voltage before plumbing. We're not dumb, and we would take the shortest best route, which would just happen to be exactly where pipes HAD to go in several different places.

This message was edited by Ernie Bornn-Gilman on 10/06/05 07:29 ET.

I will not prewire before the electrician I insist on being after him and if they get near me after the fact I immediately tell the home owner I will no longer guarantee the performance of the system. It gets moved! In response to the original question it is most likely a grounding problem almost always is. Anything is possible of course but I will bet that when and if the problem gets found it was ground related! Take a 3 to 2 plug adaptor at the plug and see if that has an effect...do not leave it like that!

Your average ground loop issue right from the start, yet the installer doesn't know it?

Am I wrong?

It seems that it would be just way too much work, & thinking/planning, to try & design & install a system & anticipate sparky ahead of time. WOW, my head hurts just thinkin' about it! I always insist on starting my physical install after the electricians or maybe on the day they are wrapping up to get them on my side & fix any problems. They usually are doing the basic LV package & I'll usually have some change or addition for them. It's good to make new friends & associates, also. You never know where that next BIG refferal is gonna' come from, but you can certainly plant some seeds. Erik

You guys dont give a list of NEEDS to the builder in the DESIGN phase of construction. This portion of the job is typically done BEFORE sparky. Blame no one but yourself for problems because of piss poor planning.

You should make the list a specific and figure sparky is complete boob. Request dedicated circuit(s) at the head end. Be specific, if (2) circuits are needed use (2) 12/2 not 14/2 or any 3 wires. I always run a separate dedicated circuit for the plasma(s)s and subwoofer. This way, I can reduce my chances of noise being injected by other things on the circuit and can reduce the chance of ground loops.

I just prewired a job that sparky had 3 different circuits for the head end, plasma and subwoofer. The electrician had already started when the job was awarded to me. I had him remove the wires for the plasma and subwoofer and add a second dedicated circuit for the plasma and subwoofer. He had no idea what a ground loop was or that they could be a problem.

A/V #101... textbook definition of a ground loop.


No.

Larry, you have WAY too much time on your hands! Good example though.

Agree that your Project Outline should be given to the client and the builder ahead of time. Even if you only have a week before the walls are closed up and you are just brought into the project you still have to have the requirements documented. They don't change just because the timeline is short.

A few of the items on my list:

No low voltage wires will be installed before the electrician is done. No exceptions.

Every equipment location gets a dedicated 20 amp run and the plasma is pigtailed from that with a surge protected outlet. Sub if required is also pigtailed from equipment location. (not sure if this is better or worse than Bart Simpson's method).

The document is 3 pages long so there is lots of other stuffs too.

Could you publish that for us so we could rip off your hard work and hours and hours of discussion that it had to have taken to put that list together? It reminds me of a two-pager that I put together once, and that was just on details for cabinetmakers!

Do you find electricians, or even clients, are focused on the written word enough to even read it through? I would go over it verbally because it is just too easy to sign such a form, then do what they want.

Guys - 1 circuit typically wont cut it. A 50" plasma can draw 4-500w, a decent sub can draw even more. Ever read the specs on a big multi channel amp? They alone could draw 1,500w peaks. When you include the panel, sub, reciever, cable box, DVD, cooling fans, DA amp(s), you could easily overload a 20 amp circuit.

Hey EBG, shoot me an email.

As for the review, there is no way I just hand it out like t-shirts on the jobsite. It is gone through line by line during the design meeting with the client and the builder. If they dont have time for this then I know they dont have time to do the job right either. The other plus is that this doc really outlines all the stuff we do which makes it much easier to justify our design and PM fees.

Bart, thanks for the heads up. Haven't had any problems, but I may need to re-think things a bit.