We recently completed a takeover trim out using a Niles ZR8630. I LOVE THIS PIECE. The original bids from 2 other companies stated using 2 Niles ZR4630 controllers. Let me take a step back. The original installing contractor wired the home where he prewired all main floor zones to the main floor entertainment center in LR. Wired all lower level zones to open media area entertainment rack (hardly). The kicker here is that there was no linking between these locations. Anyway, both of the other companies proposed putting Gloria in both areas with double equipment in both areas. With no emphasis on video, just audio from these other 2 companies. Customer is big on video distribution. Why it was done that way is beyond me. So our proposal was to put in 1 ZR8630 and link all zones together so customer could pick whichever 6 zones they wanted. Spent 2 solid days rewiring and splicing the Distributed Audio cabling and even added a couple of High Def feeds to key TV locations so cust could enjoy High Def at these locations with new TV's they purchased from us. So life is good so far until we put a 26" Samsung on wall in office using original installed cable. Has really bad hum bars. Did the same at Bar area and same problem but not as bad as office. Coming from cable tv industry years ago, I always make assumptions that hum bars are the cause of bad fittings or splits in cable and/or being to close to 110V. My partner gets idea to plug tv into extension cord and plug into different 110V outlet outside of office and Bar area. HUM BARS WENT AWAY! This flys completely opposite of what I learned years ago. Any ideas how to correct this? Cannot get new cable in those locations unless we open walls and or base or door trim, which I really do not want to do. Tried putting a wall wart panamax surge suppresor/line conditioner (maybe?) and no help.
One other thing I should point out, when we prewire for wall mounted tvs, we put our outlet on the other side of stud from 110V at same height. This original installer (not!!!!) put it approximately 5 inches below 110V in same cavity. I feel this is one of the problems, but I'm not sure. We make a big deal in ALL of our prewires to keep all of our wires as far away from 110V as possible, (min 18 inches is what we like) even to the point of making sparky rerun some of his wires if he tries to get to close to our wires. You can imagine how we do not make a lot of friends with sparky when we tell them to rerun his wires. Our builders pay us good money for a quality job and if sparky will not listen to us, he will listen to builder after we tell builder why he needs to rerun wires.
Interesting thing is, we never have problems trimming our own stuff, GEE, I WONDER WHY!! And I have been accused of being a hack in this business. YEP, Thats what I am.

I'm writing out a check right now to buy you some paragraphs. Where do I mail it?

Classic ground loop problems.

See if you can get the electrician to change the AC feeds at the breaker box (of the offending TV outlets) to the other side of the panel.

If not, check into Jensen (right guys?).

Oh yes, a few more paragraphs would be nice

Before you go too nuts.
You might want to check the polarity of the A/C plug, reversing the White & Black could solve your problem.

ROTFLMAO!!!

Im sorry if it was wordy, just wanted to make sure that I covered everything that was going on.

Wordy is cool; it gives the details needed to make the story whole. Break the story up with some paragraphs when the thought changes from one thing to the next and more people will be able to get more out of the narrative.

Someone's point about checking the polarity of the power outlet is a good one. Given that this client has gone through two other av guys, he may have been changing electricans in the same way.

Actually, he just bought the house about 6 weeks ago. The only reason he went through the other 2 guys is because they were not giving him the solution he wanted, I recieved him as a referal from another customer of mine. He saw what we did for him and said thats what he wanted. BTW, using the Niles ZR8630 is a standard cookie cutter solution we provide. Wish I could say the same for the Russound CAV6.6. I like it too, but programming is a b*tch, especially when you try to integrate a Sony 400 Disc Changer in the mix. Niles programming is a snap.

And BTW, thank you to everybody for your suggestions and ideas. I appreciate this site for being able to throw out problems and I can get answers. Thanks!!

This particular problem doesn't fly in the face of what you have learned, it is something else that you haven't run across. I guess it didn't make as much difference with cable signals, but does with video signals.

When FP Crazy talks about changing the AC feeds at the breaker, he means this: You know how there are three wires coming in from the pole? The center one is grounded and outer two are 120 volts away from the center. The outer two are out of phase, so we get 220 volts (120 + 120 = 220, ya know) when we go from one outer lead to the other. Because these are out of phase, they are called the two phases of the power.

If you have an A/V system taking its power from one phase and a plasma taking its power from the other phase, then you are really really pushing the ability of the system as a whole to reject AC hum. This has nothing to do with how far the AC is from the video leads, either. It has to do with the fact that, at any moment, instead of the hot leads of the plasma and the A/V system elswhere in the house being at the same voltage as one another, they are as much as 220 volts away from each other.

The extension cord worked because it put the two parts of the system on the same phase.

If you don't want to touch the inside of a power panel, and I recommend you don't unless you know what you are doing not only about wiring but about balancing the phases, then you will need an electrician's help on this one so you can identify which breakers the different things are, and figure out what to do so they are on the same phase.

The phase balancing issue is that the house wiring should be done so that, at any given time, the amount of current drawn by one phase is close to the amount drawn by the other phase. That takes more planning and thinking about power usage than we installers ever get into, which is why a good electrician should take care of this.

Does not 120 + 120 = 240? Is math done differently on the left cost? I am being a pain here but only because it's you Ernie. Doesn't affect your point. But while I cannot spell I evidently can add.

Alan

Mr. Nuts, I reformatted your text by adding paragraph breaks, but otherwise changed nothing. See if you find reading this post easier than your original. I will re-read it and see if I have anything to add afterward.


We recently completed a takeover trim out using a Niles ZR8630. I LOVE THIS PIECE. The original bids from 2 other companies stated using 2 Niles ZR4630 controllers.

Let me take a step back. The original installing contractor wired the home where he prewired all main floor zones to the main floor entertainment center in LR. Wired all lower level zones to open media area entertainment rack (hardly). The kicker here is that there was no linking between these locations.

Anyway, both of the other companies proposed putting Gloria in both areas with double equipment in both areas. With no emphasis on video, just audio from these other 2 companies. Customer is big on video distribution. Why it was done that way is beyond me.

So our proposal was to put in 1 ZR8630 and link all zones together so customer could pick whichever 6 zones they wanted. Spent 2 solid days rewiring and splicing the Distributed Audio cabling and even added a couple of High Def feeds to key TV locations so cust could enjoy High Def at these locations with new TV's they purchased from us.

So life is good so far until we put a 26" Samsung on wall in office using original installed cable. Has really bad hum bars. Did the same at Bar area and same problem but not as bad as office. Coming from cable tv industry years ago, I always make assumptions that hum bars are the cause of bad fittings or splits in cable and/or being to close to 110V.

My partner gets idea to plug tv into extension cord and plug into different 110V outlet outside of office and Bar area. HUM BARS WENT AWAY! This flys completely opposite of what I learned years ago. Any ideas how to correct this?

Cannot get new cable in those locations unless we open walls and or base or door trim, which I really do not want to do. Tried putting a wall wart panamax surge suppresor/line conditioner (maybe?) and no help.

One other thing I should point out, when we prewire for wall mounted tvs, we put our outlet on the other side of stud from 110V at same height. This original installer (not!!!!) put it approximately 5 inches below 110V in same cavity. I feel this is one of the problems, but I'm not sure.

We make a big deal in ALL of our prewires to keep all of our wires as far away from 110V as possible, (min 18 inches is what we like) even to the point of making sparky rerun some of his wires if he tries to get to close to our wires.

You can imagine how we do not make a lot of friends with sparky when we tell them to rerun his wires. Our builders pay us good money for a quality job and if sparky will not listen to us, he will listen to builder after we tell builder why he needs to rerun wires.

Interesting thing is, we never have problems trimming our own stuff, GEE, I WONDER WHY!! And I have been accused of being a hack in this business. YEP, Thats what I am.


See what I mean? This is why the guys mentioned it.

Thanks for correcting me. Sorry, I was not an english major. I decided to major in Electronics. It's all good.

One of the more important things to do in a pre wire is to try to be the electicians partner. 99% of them are great people and will work with you.

Making it tough for sparky might make you feel better, but in the end it makes for headaches (sometimes hum bars).

You do the right thing Wire nuts, by keeping all the low voltage away from the 110. One thing you are missing, is your knowledge of home high voltage wiring and Ernie explains it very well.

If you formed a working relationship with the electricians and explained the problems you want to avoid and at the same time gain some knowledge of high voltage in todays homes, then your hum bar problems (read money lost) will diminish drasticly.

I have such good relationships with electricians that referals bounce back and forth like lightning. I also don't want to be bothered with having to engineer a potential phase/ground issue and it is not the electricians duty to know what electronics might be affected by such differentials. If I have the opportunity, I work with the electrician and explain the possible pitfalls and I have yet to have any major money losing problems.

Point well taken. A couple of electricians we work with are excellent to work with, even to the point of giving us dedicated feeds where we need them without us asking them. But others just don't give a s**t about anybody elses stuff and how their poor installation techniques affect other peoples work. That's who I was reffering to.

Unfortunately, it always seems to be the same electricians that are always doing the same crap over and over, so my question would be this. How many times do I have to tell the same electricians to stop running so close to our stuff. It is not my money that he is losing by having to rewire what he already wired.