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In many cases, that is what you find here, Alan. Many posting here are new people (both to this industry and this site) and are trying to get information as a startup. Many more are customers trying to pick our brains. C'est la vie. I, for one, would hate to see you leave for that reason as I have found your responses to be insightful and well thought through - even when we've disagreed (MAC address, anyone?).

However, what I've also found here are people like you who have knowledge in areas which I am ignorant. I frequently troll here, looking to expand my knowledge and, when I have something to contribute within my area of expertise, I do so. Hopefully, the startups who keep asking the same questions over and over will stick around long enough once their questions are answered to actually contribute rather than just leech.

This message was edited by RC Geek on 05/24/05 17:53 ET.

I have no problem with my local A##D. I do think some of their 'inititives' suck

Wow! Nnot sure how I shit in your oatmeal, but sure am sorry.




I looked into it, and called Crestron about it, because I had a customer inquire about it, and I wanted to know what all was involved. Even though I didn’t "just begin" this business, I am admittedly NOT a big player, and CANT support the line the way they want me to , or apparently the way YOU think I should. For that reason, I will continue with the lines that I am content with now, and if I happen to expand/grow into the likes of Crestron, (when I become as vastly knowledgeable as you), then I will do so then.



|"and experience with satellite systems just does not cut it in the world of systems

Without knowing me, or my business, I don’t expect you to know my or my company’s history, experience, background, etc. It appears that you’re putting me up there with the toothless wonder satellite installers, and I just got a wild hair up my ass and decided to do CI as well for kicks. I mentioned satellite because that’s what I personally have done since the inception of dbs, and my partner has done since the inception of c-band. From there, between the two of us, we have done broadband, KU band, C-band, FTA, networking, pre-wires, worked for the cable companies, worked for Doherty, done MDU's, Home theatre, etc. We are just getting MORE SO into the HT market, verses the basic satellite systems. Integration IS new to me, and I make no claims to be an expert. That’s why I come on here, to LEARN. |



No contempt here. I really didn’t fret over it, not sure why you are. I had a customer inquire about it, so I followed up on it. In line with your advice and many others, I am not ready for it, so Ill continue to "troll" here to learn more in the meantime. (If that’s ok with you)


|You prefer Lutron lighting to Crestron's ( and again I suspect there

YEP! Ignorant!


|I doubt that would be a reason for you not to get the line. Think you might

Nope, not a clue. Again, didn’t come inhere claiming to know it all. I came asking for ADVICE, to LEARN! Sorry if I didn’t come hatched with all the vast knowledge you obviously have.

And again, never once did I claim to be a know it all, or ARROGANT. If I was ARROGANT, I wouldn’t be on here asking for ADVICE, would I? Because I would either already KNOW it, or be too proud to admit that I DIDNT know it. I’m really not sure how this seemed to cause your hair loss. I have experience in HT, though not as much as many on here. I AM new to the CI aspect of the field. I would hardly consider myself a trunk slammer, and I'm guessing that’s who you have an axe to grind with. I could be wrong. (After all, I’m NOT perfect)

As far as Cedia, I wouldn’t mind one bit if they insisted on certification, if I KNEW it was doing what it SHOULD do. What seemed to start out as a good thing now seems to be nothing more than a revenue stream. Jury's still out on that one as far as I'm concerned.|

This message was edited by idodishez on 05/25/05 00:15 ET.

Exactly. I am constantly trying to learn. And on that RARE occassion that I may actually may be able to help someone, (like Dish Net m-switches for 2ndRick) then I will do so. In the meantime, Ill keep reading.

...and thanks for that.
I am wrapping that mess up this week.

As for Alan, he is insightful and helpful one day, and piss mean the next. Maybe it's the East Coast attitude, or maybe he's still peeved because there's he realized that there is an extra "n" in his screen name, after his post count was too high to start over...

Either way, he is a great contributor and a good resource here.

The whole Crestron/AMX elitist thing cracks me up. There is no doubt that the system has more power that the next closest thing by a factor of 10.

BUT, without a consistent command protocol for half of the devices that are being integrated, those guys spend half their lives chasing the details that allow their systems to use that power to collect those checks.

There was a time like 8-10 years ago where if a guy said he was a Crestron or AMX/Phast/Audio Ease dealer, you could ask him how many pending lawsuits he had and it wouldn't even be an offensive question, because EVERYONE was getting sued by high powered junk bond millionaire clients over **effed** up systems that didn't work right...

I know a few companies that have specialized in the sat explosion that have made some serious dough... their installs wrap pretty consistently because they are fairly straightforward, and they always get big royalty checks every month like an annuity for every pissed off cable subscriber.

So who is really ignorant and taking the wrong approach here?? Just a thought...

There is enough biz to go around, and we can all find our comfort zone.

idodishez,

Don't take it to heart that you don't know. Just the fact that you called Crestron when your customer mentioned their name is what Alan is talking about. He is, from the posts that I hve read of his, a very seasoned professional and a great source of information.

Just the fact that you didn't know that Crestron is not a product that you just walk into and buy a few components is the point. Crestron is a world unto itself in this industry, and everything else strives to meet it's benchmark. I have a complete Creston system including a ST-1550C wireless touchpanel, a CRNFGWA wireless receiver, and a CNMSX-PRO processor sitting on my desk collecting dust because I haven't spent the time or money to learn how to program it. I bought it thinking that I would learn on it and be a Crestron programmer in no time. Boy, was I wrong. I do pretty well with URC remotes, and am moving into RTI and such that give you access to the serial commands that are available on the respectable brands that we endeavour to sell. I hae moved towards the entry level of control and functionality that Crestron can offer you, but I am nowhere near offering a programmed Crestron system to my customers.

Don't take it to heart that you have been rebuked a little in this forum. There are people in this industry that haved been totally flamed out of here without anything resembling a helpful hint.

Do yourself and your customers a favor and move forward at a pace that you and your company can both afford and support, and you will probably be able to eke out a living like the rest of us.

I am not a veteran in this industry, and I do more reading of the posts than posting. But, I take every piece of info that I can from here and IP and put it to use in my business. Read what you can, and learn what you will. There is no Bible for this industry.

Good luck,

John

lol

All this flaming over a post that has a LOT of truth to it.

Most of the distributors don't have a clue about many of the products they sell, other than it turns on and off....Ask your rep if an item has discrete commands and you get the deer in the headlights response, for the most part.

Guy has a customer ask about the Crestron line, he calls Crestron. So what exactly is wrong with that?

What would you do? Tell the customer that you don't carry the line, so you're not going to bother checking on it? Or would you tell the customer that you'd be happy to check it out?

A simple answer should/would have sufficed........

Where would the fun be in that ;-)? I bet you don't even like Don Rickles.

Sheesh folks..... Theres enough "****************" in this thread to fill the betty ford clinic...........

If your so paranoid about manufacturer and distributor names, go play on that other forum.... (Is it still up? I havent seen the weekly "integrationspros is down" thread in wuite a while........)

Most web sites will link folks to distributors... and theres this thing called GOOGLE that you can find all kinds of distributors for products through. Half the stuff AVAD sells can be found onthe internet for the same prices anyway.....

I do not think I am " piss mean." I just have no tollerance for stupidity no matter its guise. To argue that Lutron has a better product than Crestron without any idea about the Crestron lighting product or programming software is the height of arrogance. On what would one base that comparison? On what knowledge would that conclusion be reached?

This is not Impacq or QQQ making the comment. Indviduals who have either intimate experience with either product and sufficient installation experience on which to base this knowledge.

Given the fact that almost every product is in distribution it is not surprising that one would reach the conclusion that one is entitled to sell any product currently on the market with which one cons a clinent into giving them cash. Once front projectors required specialized knowledge. Digital displays no longer require that knowledge. Now you can make all sorts of mistakes and fix them with a zoom, focus and keystone adjustment. Once it took days to setup analog displays but digital can be up and working in 5 minutes

But once obtaining a line meant proving you had the right stuff. You needed to prove that you were catering to the right market and you had the right setup with the opportunity to make the sales figures. And you needed to carry the entire line not just the few pieces that you needed. You had to prove you were worthy. In some ways it is good that you can obtain a KDS 8x3 without having to sell the HD Lezza. But the flip side to this situation is the arrogance when a rep for one of the few lines that is still restricted tells you you cannot have the line. It is not the trolling for information that is wrong it is the editiorial comments. Why would it be worng for any manfacturer to insist you carry the entir line? Why would minimum dollar figures be worng or unusual? Want just one touch panel then partner up with an other dealer who already has the line. This is what used to happen. You needed Sony? You found a store selling Sony and established a relationship. You wanted Barco? You found a pro dealer who would work with you and sometimes you made less money.

Who does not see in the reply that you need to carry the entire line or you need a show room a tactful way of informing you that you will not get the line? Reps are often very polite. Why say no when you can say it without saying it. Does anyone really believe that if anyone couuld sell 100k in any product that they would not get the line? But the rep would like to see proof that you have done or could do 100k worth of businss. And they want some proof that you have the skill set to install their product. And making product judgements without any intimate kowledge of the products is illogical. Crestron could care less if you sold their lighting product if you sold 100k of touch panels. Do I know this for sure? Of course not. But let's get real. If you could sell 100k of touch panels you would be a mega sized company.

I am an exceptional control system programmer. That does not imply that I could move into a .net enviorment. We all have limitations. But you will never find me commenting about matters that I have no basis to form an opinion---save for the fact that THON needs psychotheropy. That is a conclusion I am sigularly unqualified to reach--but everyone already knew the validity of both of those statements.

I do wish Daniel would take the few moments to remove the extra n from my screen name. But I am not the least bothered by it or if any of you think I am a jerk. In the final analysis I think the experineced players here understand my point and in time so will you new guys.

Alan

Well I understand your point intimately Alan. But there is a big difference between ingnorance and stupidity.

Hear, Hear!!

I just can't be aware of every brand and device and gadget out there, so when a customer inquires, the right thing to do is say, "I don't know but will find out for you." I think that's all our friend did and I think he got hit hard.

He and I are two who will make the calls and get back to the client and say, "Great stuff, great reputation, but I don't have the expertise to do a great job for you with that product."

I know the Crestron lighting control systems sales manager personally (I expect many of us here do), and I have never met a more motivated, bit-in-his-teeth salesperson in my life. He cares very much....

And, you and I have talked personally in the past few weeks. Mean? Nope. Direct? Absolutely, but there is no sin in that.

Ok, maybe not piss mean...
As I said, you are a great resource here.
It should have been pretty obvious that I was joking about the piss mean and the extra "n" comment... Trip-Q saw it for what it was...

You certainly don't try to sugar coat anything, or even offer a chaser for that matter. You just dispatch the medicine as it comes.

As Owen says, there is a refreshing aspect to that sometimes, especially when it's dumbass manufacturers being harshed for yet another bonehead move that will cause us great amounts of headaches.

My comments were to let him know that we all know that you are not afraid to voice your opinions, and to just take it in stride like we do.

Personally, I get a kick out of it, but I am a little sick like that.

In this particular case, this guy thought you were badgering him personally for his ignorance AS he is taking steps to become educated about the upper eschelon of the industry...

There is no doubt that the comment regarding Crestron vs. Lutron lighting control came from ignorance of the real nuts and bolts approach of both systems and their applications, but I read it more from a perspective that he wasn't interested in starting over with Crestron lighting since he has already becoming more familiar with Lutron. A client mentioned Crestron panels, and as a courtesy he said he would look into it.

I think that what was lost on him initially, and what you drove home in a very "direct" way, that ANY Crestron or AMX involvement will require intensive training and a comittment to going about business in general from a new angle than he is presently taking, and that starting over with a new lighting control system that is directly linked to the control system in terms of unified training and support, the fact that they were designed from the ground up to work cohesively, etc.

Starting over with this approach after a few months of getting started with Lutron is hardly retracing footsteps.

I wouldn't say "stupidity" was at fault, just ignorance.

This message was edited by 2nd rick on 05/25/05 20:01 ET.