I have had this question a few times from different customers. Besides the obvious running cooler and a little more power. Are there any more inherent and value added benefits to going with a Prepro and amp, or would you be better off spending the money on a higher end reciever?

Here's my opinion. You can buy some very good receivers anymore. However, if you're looking to spend $2500 or more spend it wisely. Get a seperate processor and amplifier. You will get better sound, alot (if not all) of the same features, and the upgrade path is easier.

I think a lot of this goes back to the basic argument, back in monaural audio days, between separate components and an integrated unit.

Separate components allow, among other things, for different power amps to be used. Separate components are sexier, at least to nerds. There are more of them on the shelf, so they look like a bigger system. It is possible for noise to be lower with separate components because the power supplies of the preamp and power amp(s) are not only separate, they are not in the same chassis.

Integrated units allow you to do the whole thing with one box. They are a more plebeian approach, without the cachet of "separates." They also allow some nice advantages, though, such as power amps that can be selected to be additional surround channels or a second zone amp.

I doubt that the controversy will ever end as to which approach is better. A really important thing to note, though, is that any argument about fidelity and performance is about the top 2% of performance.

As to value, what do you value? Are you more important because your shelves are more filled? Do you hide the equipment because all you want to see is the screen?

I could go on, as I often do....

I agree with ernie. They are sexier. With separates you are dealing with the basic idea of specialization. One component specializing in only the procressing (and in many cases preamplification and tuner) can focus just on those aspect of the audio system. The amplifier then specializes in the amplification. Specialization is better because it allows one component to focus on only one function, processing.

Also with separates you can pick up imporoved features, such as BNC Component IN/OUT, IR Input, State of the art processing, Video displayed on the front panel, etc. A few years later, you can upgrade the pre/pro, and continue to use the same amplifier.

Another option is to use a receiver as your pre/pro and use an separate amp. We do this alot, because the customer will purchase or already have power hungry speakers. It is hard to convince some people to step up from a $500-1000 Denon to a 1500-2400 pre/pro. Some customers are all over the pre/pro, but most are not.

Mike

Good points.

Of course, if you've ever installed a B & K or top of the line Denon receiver it can sometimes be difficult to justify using seperates. My view is that it depends on four things: The customer, the speakers, the room and how much you really want to sell cables. Any one of the four can cause you to sell one over the other.

Do seperates sound better? Yes, assuming the first three criteria represent premiums. The best seperates in the world won't make a difference with lousy speakers, a nightmare room or a deaf customer.

What do I own? A Primare SP31.7 with Acurus amps and Sonus Faber speakers. I wouldn't trade it for any receiver in the world - but I'd take a free one to use in a second system.

Jeff

I would disagree with Jeff. I have a Denon receiver with a bryston 3BSST and a 5BSST with Jamo E850 speakers. The amps made the world of difference adding more bass clarity and head room. I would highly recommend Bryston to anyone. Excellent amplifiers.

Mike

I've used Denon, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite, and Rotel for receivers. All are very good at what they do, but they just can't compete againgst seperates. There are two things that equal power in amplifiers (we're not talking tube or digital here), heat sinks and transformers. When you look into a receiver you see relatively small transformers and almost no heat sinks. Look into a good amplifier and you see a huge transformer and rather large heat sinks. Although a receiver may be rated at 100 watts, lets look at the distortion levels (and at what ohms was it rated 100 watts???).

I'll take seperates for a high end system every time.

Matt

Separates will typically sound better at higher listening levels. My first system consisted of (2) Adcom amps and a Marantz preamp with Def Tech BP2000's, CLR2000 center & BPX surrounds. I moved and traded the separates for Pioneer Elite's Flagship at the time, VSX-49TX. This thing couldn't even come close at higher listening levels. It would just shut down and scream in pain. It is, however, ok at lower levels. The reciever retailed at $4,500 and the amps with the preamp was alittle less I believe. I am moving again next year. I will be selling the house with the receiver and buying some AudioControl stuff.

I NEVER sell flagship receivers. It seems a logical jump from a $1,000 to go into separates even thoguh its a big price jump. My 2 cents

My advice is to choose your seperates wisely. There's been a fair share of seperates companies who've either fallen off of the map or gone away completely.

Another point that I've made before is that it's awfully hard for the small esoteric companies to compete against the technology giants in the software area. The amps are fine, the pre/processors are a different matter.

Personally, I've been burned one too many times by seperates companies (ones with big names too) to invest anything into selling them anymore.

I'm looking forward to someone proving me wrong. I'd dearly love to get back into the seperates business.

What does everyone think of using a decent receiver as a preamp with a good power amp?

Simple answer: a waste of the receiver's amps. What would be the advantage of a receiver over a pre/pro? If you have a use for the extra channels, or some feature not available in a pre/pro, maybe.

In my opinion, the only advantage of the receiver is easier hook-up, followed by the single-box advantage if space is at a premium. Remember, though, that amps generally don't have to be visible.

In my stack (which is six feet tall), the bottom two components are amps, but if I ever get additional pieces, I can always relegate the amp(s) to somewhere inside the closet. Flexibility can be useful.

With all due respect, it's pretty darned hard to find the features in a pre/pro that you can fine in a state of the art receiver. Plus, you're at better odds that the company will still be in business five year from now.

Thats some of the beauty of a preamp. The "fluff" that marketing makes them put in recievers can be mind boggling. Who needs 45 sound modes?

My thinking is just that there is such a variety of receivers and range of cost. There seem to be less and less pre/pros to choose from and they are usually VERY expensive. I would assume a nice $1000 receiver with a $1500 multi channel amp would likely blow away ans $2500 receiver by itself. Also, receivers seem to get updated very frequently with new features and pre/pros seem to lag.

Personally I specify the B&K Reference 50 pre/pro in all of my high end theatre rooms. If the budget allows, I join that with Bryston amplifiers. If the budget is a little less, I join it with B&K amps. The Ref 50 has all the whistles and bells (or at least most) of any of the major Jap companies and sounds simply marvelous. If the budget is even less, I sell the AVR507 receiver which is a marvel in many ways.

Ahem, I doubt that B&K is going out of business anytime soon and they have a nice variety of other electronics that cater to the Custom Install product (like their marvelous CT Whole House Audio stuff, which I'll put up against any thing that Xantech, Niles, Speakercraft, Sonance or Russound sells).

Amazes me that so many installers are not familiar with this line.

And if I wasn't a B&K dealer I'd probably give the Anthem a serious look. Not as solid a company as B&K , but they look like they're going to be around for a while.

Other separates lines that seem to be pretty stable are Lexicon, Parasound, Rotel, McIntosh. I'm sure that there are others that I'm forgetting.