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Topic:
Control Systems are dead.
This thread has 98 replies. Displaying posts 46 through 60.
Post 46 made on Tuesday February 11, 2020 at 23:04
vwpower44
Super Member
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If you base everything we do and plan off the habits of teens we are screwed.

We just did a Sony 77OLED, Ariston, DOlby Atmos, Sonance, JL Audio, Roku, AppleTV, Cable, Plex Server, Sonos, etc. The room rock and cost over 80k. Every single time I have been over there, the two kids have been sitting on the couch watching TV, Netflix, Youtube, or whatever on their phones or tablets. If this is the leading indicator, we are all screwed including any TV manufacturer...
Stay Hungry, Stay Foolish...
Post 47 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 00:45
sirroundsound
Senior Member
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Kids do not watch TV the way we do.
Cable companies and even broadcasters are aware of this and trying to figure out where the industry is going and how to stay relevant.
E Sports has become a massive industry. For most of us, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would 10,000 people show up to a stadium to "watch" people play a video game like League of legends or the other popular games. And millions around the world spend countless hours playing these games at home, and they also spend crazy amounts of time watching these games from home too.
Post 48 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 00:56
dunnersfella
Regular Member
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227
On February 11, 2020 at 20:43, mrtristan said...
My biggest peeve with control systems is the inability to manage music the way Sonos does. I swear once Crestron, RTI, Control 4, Savant, Yamaha, Denon, Bose..etc..figure out how to handle all music services without having to use another app, things will be great. Right now I'm just considering Sonos for everything that requires music. Nothing beats using one app to turn on rooms, adjust music and search for music. You could build a business based on Sonos, TV and Network systems installation alone and your customers won't complain about things not working all the time.

...and then Spotify drop the ability for 3rd party companies to control their software and force EVERYONE into their Connect approach. And your Sonos customers will complain as they're 'not used to it'.
Then Sonos sues Apple and they drop Apple Music support for Sonos and again, your customers complain.

Whether this happens or not is theoretical, but it's certainly not smart to put all your eggs in one basket.
This industry is not getting cheaper and cheaper, we're simply convincing ourselves that we have to push the cheapest option to customers.
#makesonosgreatagain
OP | Post 49 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 08:05
Fins
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On February 11, 2020 at 23:04, vwpower44 said...
If you base everything we do and plan off the habits of teens we are screwed.

We just did a Sony 77OLED, Ariston, DOlby Atmos, Sonance, JL Audio, Roku, AppleTV, Cable, Plex Server, Sonos, etc. The room rock and cost over 80k. Every single time I have been over there, the two kids have been sitting on the couch watching TV, Netflix, Youtube, or whatever on their phones or tablets. If this is the leading indicator, we are all screwed including any TV manufacturer...

Teens don’t set market trends in our industry, but they do grow up to be customers. And their adult habits will be largely influenced by habits they had as kids and things they grew accustomed to during those formative years
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 50 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 08:47
Don Heany
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As a tech junkie I like to keep an eye on what’s next. Energy companies like Sonnen, coupled with solar or PoE lighting for example. As it’s been mentioned a few times in this thread (and all the doom threads preceding this one), our ability to adapt to the market is key, as is abandoning product or practices that require constant massaging to work properly.
Post 51 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 09:55
Rob Grabon
Founding Member
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They ALL need a network.
Technology is cheap, Time is expensive.
OP | Post 52 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 10:20
Fins
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On February 12, 2020 at 08:47, Don Heany said...
As a tech junkie I like to keep an eye on what’s next. Energy companies like Sonnen, coupled with solar or PoE lighting for example. As it’s been mentioned a few times in this thread (and all the doom threads preceding this one), our ability to adapt to the market is key, as is abandoning product or practices that require constant massaging to work properly.

At no point have I said I think our industry is going to go away. Just that IMO, technology and the customer is going to change the role we serve.
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 53 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 11:28
Hasbeen
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On February 12, 2020 at 09:55, Rob Grabon said...
They ALL need a network.

Eero is handling that pretty well.  I see guys who are moving from the mainstays  Luxul, Pakedege, and now they're using Eero. 
Post 54 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 11:42
SWFLMike
Long Time Member
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243
On February 11, 2020 at 10:59, FunHouse Texas said...
10 years ago a control system would do its job fairly consistently and reliably with IR and RS232. it worked! now that control systems integrate with many other APP based devices, when the owners of those app based devices make a firmware change - they are indifferent to how it connects with our control systems. so the customer has to call the integrator and pay to have this issue fixed. until the next time. With the app, the firmware rarely affects anything else. no disruption, no service call, no fee. my customer stated that he felt like he had the last integrator on a retainer just to he could listen to music. another customers said his original C4 dealer had gone out of business and to bring in a new C4 dealer to fix his system was going to be $1800.

^^^ This. We're just getting onboard with C4 and I'm stunned at how hard they're steering everything in an IP-controlled direction. Hell, I'm stunned at how hard *everything* outside of the actual basic system configuration is.

EDIT - My sales guy just called C4 and they have a pre-recorded message telling you to use the IR driver for AppleTV now because there was an update that broke the IP driver.

Last edited by SWFLMike on February 12, 2020 12:11.
Post 55 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 14:05
FunHouse Texas
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of course they did....
I AM responsible for typographical errors!
I have all the money I will ever need - unless i buy something..
Post 56 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 16:32
lippavisual
Senior Member
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On February 12, 2020 at 11:28, Hasbeen said...
Eero is handling that pretty well.  I see guys who are moving from the mainstays  Luxul, Pakedege, and now they're using Eero. 

And it's destroying the market and spectrums at the same time. If anyone has a clue about networking, they are not using any of the above products.

Gimmick at best and just re-packaged wifi repeaters from days old.

These devices are sold to lazy installers or unknowing customers.
Post 57 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 16:32
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On February 12, 2020 at 00:45, sirroundsound said...
Kids do not watch TV the way we do.

The only issue worth discussing is whether they will continue in their present habits. Or will they change, evolve if you like that term, into people who fit our previous business model?

Cable companies and even broadcasters are aware of this and trying to figure out where the industry is going and how to stay relevant.

Yup.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 58 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 16:54
tomciara
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On February 12, 2020 at 16:32, lippavisual said...
And it's destroying the market and spectrums at the same time. If anyone has a clue about networking, they are not using any of the above products.

Gimmick at best and just re-packaged wifi repeaters from days old.

These devices are sold to lazy installers or unknowing customers.

At least tell us how you really feel.

Guess what, in homes without a full blown control system these work remarkably well, make clients happy that were unhappy before hand, and do not give us service calls.

So now I will make a bold statement much like yours. Good integrators don’t sell one product to everybody, they sell the product that is appropriate for the situation.

P. S. I do not take issue with you if you have a product you like better. But if you honestly are calling them old technology and repackaged repeaters, then you don’t understand or have not looked into the technology yourself.
"People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive." - Blaise Pascal
Post 59 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 17:02
Old Man River
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363
I can't help but wonder if some of y'all even listen to your clients. The majority of people I deal with, from higher end down to that mid market that most integrators completely ignore or can't sell to because they don't understand their needs, don't see the multiple app scenario as inconvenient. Especially when, as mentioned numerous times in this thread, most of those devices' apps are better for the specific device than what you get when integrated into a control system's interface. The control system may still have a place, but it's a shrinking space, and it really doesn't make sense for most clients outside of the very high end market, and even then it's not always necessary and often not at all what the client actually wants. But we, as an industry, have brainwashed ourselves into believing that if it's not all tied to a control system, it's not done right. Maybe ten years ago, but those days are gone. Especially since most control system manufacturers are just rolling out buggy, untested junk as fast as they can.

2 years ago, I would have argued against everything I'm saying now. But the reality is, when we sell a control system, we're selling snake oil and a commitment to swindle the client again and again every time the control system gets outpaced by current technology. We may not believe we're swindling people, but we are. We sell people high dollar systems that are pretty well guaranteed to cost them again and again. Think about every time Control4 has rolled out an update that basically renders older systems obsolete. Every control system manufacturer is guilty of it, too, not just C4, but some of their fiascos from years past help them stand out.

We might think we're some bunch of cool tech guys that deliver this great experience, but we're not. At least, not if we're selling everything around a control system on jobs where it's nowhere even close to necessary. We're no better than greasy car salesmen. I for one am done with it. At least if a client's Nest thermostat needs replaced by some new, great, and wondrous piece, it's not going to cost them f*cktons of money because the whole ecosystem has to be replaced to accommodate one or two new components. Factor in that most control systems seem to have a maximum life of ten years, and we're really looking like the villains. At least with the multi app approach, things can be dealt with as they happen in the case of outdated product, or even product failure, rather than knowing that the whole thing will have to go in ten years.

And that, my friends, is the hard truth that we as an industry had better come to grips with if we want to survive.
Lord loves a workin' man; don't trust whitey; see a doctor and get rid of it.
Post 60 made on Wednesday February 12, 2020 at 18:08
jrainey
Active Member
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549
^^^^^ these are true words....
Obviously shading and lighting are huge areas of growth....but another is one that got us here in the first place...better audio....

So many of us (and I was one of the worst offenders) have installed the highest profit cheap crap speakers we could....we drove them with whatever cheap amp was in our program....it was good enough....until it started not to be....the smart speakers and table top radios started sounding almost as good....

Go back to your roots....find an area or two or three in the house that need a great audio experience...And for gods sake find real speakers from a real speaker company ....educate your customer on High-Rez...since moving over to the rep side I have fallen in love with music again....your customers can too

And how many times have you updated firmware in a speaker?
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