here is the current equivlant. [Link: krellonline.com]

I had to check the weight and the krell is closer to 50lbs. It was a beast and I'm sure the current one more so.

I listen to one every day. I have a Yamaha 30xx AVR. It’s a very good amp. I’ve installed a lot of them. But, it’s not an awesome amp. Trying to use it to bi-amp speakers (which I still haven’t figured out how he’s doing that) is a waste of time. If you are trying to get that serious, then you should step up to something a better.

Although, one thing that hasn’t been brought up, what source is he using? Is he trying to go through all this trouble just to stream music?

No reason getting greedy. At $10k a piece, selling 500 would be plenty. LOL

Totally agree that Yamaha makes a very nice AVR and their preamp is a great value.
Also there is no way to really biamp speakers using a AVR. My only guess is that he’s running it in multi channel stereo.
To get better performance he needs to step up into a real amp. The best AVR I’ve heard is from Audio Control.
If he’s just running a pair of speakers in stereo then he should really look into a two channel setup.

Here is a good amp to try out. The Yamaha comments on a high end amp are ever so comical by the way.


[Link: dandagostino.com]

A little on the pricy side though.

Qualitysound,

There is no standard for assigning a "200W" rating to a speaker (often assigned by the marketing department), therefore we don't really know what a spec sheet means when they assign a "200W" number to a speaker. I don't want to drop B&W into this bin, but low quality manufacturers tend to assign a high number to attract unsophisticated customers who might assume that a bigger number implies a better speaker. And, attaching a 100W amplifier to a 200W speaker is no guarantee that the user cannot damage the speaker.

I am a fan of bi-amp when an active crossover is inserted ahead of the amplifiers. This is difficult or impossible to accomplish with an AVR --- and this will require an additional "box". Many AVR's offer a "bi-amp" mode, but this does not insert a crossover.

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At an elementary level "harmonic distortion" means that a device adds
components that are integer multiples of the fundamental frequency. If one inputs a 1KHz signal, the output will be 1000, 2000, 3000, etc. The magnitude of the "distortion" is expressed as a ratio of the harmonics and the fundamental. Lower harmonic energy is more desirable.

There is also "intermodulation distortion". Here, sums and differences are added by the device. If we input 100Hz and 1000Hz, intermodulation products will be produced at 1100Hz and 900Hz.

If you push these concepts through a real world amplifier, both types of distortion are present and as we input two simple tones, a blizzard of products emerge because there will be harmonic and intermodulation distortion of the of the distortion products. Above, there will be additional distortion components at 1800Hz and 2200Hz, and 1800 +/- 100 --- etc.

Of course, better quality amplifiers (and speakers) will minimize the production of spurious products. In the bi-amp arrangement that inserts a crossover ahead of the power amplifiers, each amplifier is given a simpler job because of the band limited input. Harmonic distortion is tolerated well by humans, intermodulation distortion is annoying.

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As others have commented, room considerations often swamp equipment considerations. Simply rearranging the placement of speakers in the room can have a big payoff for no additional expense.

Although I have never even looked at the settings to see how it works, most Integra receivers have speaker connections on the back for zone 2/biamp. Perhaps they are the exception to your statement that it cannot be done with an AVR.

Actually, it wouldn't be hard to use active bi-amping with an AVR that has preamp outs, as long as the crossover has level controls for each band in order to balance the sound.

That doesn't make it true 'bi-amp' in the traditional sense, it just means that the high pass and low pass have their own amplifier channels. The same could be done by putting a Y-cord from the AVR's pre outs to the power amp in and also to another power amp. Same thing is accomplished and it has been done many times in the past, but it's dual-amp, not bi-amp.

When did this whole thing start, and by whom? I would bet that it was Munster Cable, who also decided to sell their four conductor cable with one fat pair/one skinny pair, based on the "fact" that high frequencies and low frequencies travel at different speeds. Might be a fact, but at the usual lengths of speaker cable, it's inconsequential.

Noel Lee's son was asked for his opinion on his father's products and his response- "My father came up with a solution to a problem that didn't exist".

highfigh, love your comment, especially the well-deserved disparaging of Noel Lee, but wondering about this one huge detail:


What, then, is the difference between dual-amp and bi-amp?

I forgot about this because on most of the models they changed it to an option for front highs instead of bi-amping, and I would never consider bothering to bi-amp with a Japanese AVR anyway. But it does look like the 3080 has options for zone 2/presence/bi-amp.

I think he’s saying the dual amp doesn’t have proper crossover

A few thoughts

Passive xovers usually introduce phase linearity problems. I don't believe electronic xovers suffer from that (especially digital xovers). But those phase irregularities are usually not as noticeable in the mid bass region (where most biamping xover points occur). More noticeable in the midrange where our ears and hearing is strongest.

Of course, the other advantage is extracting the bass out of the amp that is driving the hi pass frequencies. So it is not burdened with bass soaking power that is going to be passively filtered out anyway

And I wonder if biamping the speakers would still send the signal though the internal hi pass coils and caps in the speaker's hi pass passive xover? Those components not only "color" the sound but soak power (inefficient)

None of these thoughts answer the question about getting a Yammy AVR to perform as described. I tend to agree it's a bit like putting lipstick on a pig. Until the plan steers towards an electronic digital xover that can control q, slope, etc and using quality real amps with hefty power supplies. You're just masterbating.

Since "bi" implies two, there is confusion between the two schemes.

In my opinion "dual-amp" is accomplished with a simple y-cable. "Bi-amp" requires that a crossover is used to split the input signal. While the crossover could be passive, an active crossover allows more design and control options. It would be somewhat clumsy to incorporate adjustable crossover frequencies and slope in a passive design.

The crossovers in most entry/mid-level tower speakers stay in play when bi-amping. There is absolutely nothing wrong with b-amping a nice set of towers with a receiver. I had my B&W seven series bi-amped from a 6000 series Marantz receiver for years they sounded great. it is by no means going to double the sound put or anything near it. But it will absolutely clean things up a bit and increase dynamic range. Of course a better amp will sound better!!! Duh!!! That goes without saying.

Also receivers have had bi-amp options for at least 7-8 years!!!