I'm no fan of insurance companies, nor am I an expert on the issue but I think it's a pretty complex problem and I think that "greedy insurance companies" are only a small part of the equation. It involves skyrocketing medical costs, countless consumers who abuse the system causing costs to be high for the rest of us, countless bogus lawsuits and scams that dirve up costs etc.

And there are lots of legit lawsuits too, I don't mean to blame it all on (bogus ones) either.

This may have some truth at 10 employees but not at 5 and the real savings really begins at about 50.


If you take the time to do the math, you may be surprised by the outcome. If you look at what an MSA is you will find it is nothing more than the common sense way most of are parents (I'm 37) handled health care cost. They paid for doctors visits and medicine out of pocket and had insurance if something serious happened.


Well it looks like in the case of LASIK the market has provided a choice. Like wise in DLP projectors we have choice, I could by a $1000 infocus or a $15000 Sim2 or any thing in between. So why do things like MRIs (once a cutting edge technology) continue to go up in price? It may be becuse there is no market pressure to drive them down.

I can live whit that.


I couldn't agree more.


This depends very much on the person, most of are techs are men in their early to mid twenties and single. If you were to ask most people in this position whether they want health care or an extra $500 a month, most will take the money. We do pay very well and are techs are very skilled and hard working.


QQQ are you an employee or employer?

Employer.

My *personal* opinion (anyone flame me all you want) is that most mature and responsible individuals are going to want health insurance. In other words, I would very moderately favor someone that wants insurance and would be concerned that someone that would prefer to get an extra few hundred dollars a month might be more likely to lack good on the job judgement and/or responsibility. Of course I'm not saying that a person that makes the decsion to take the money might not be an incredible employee/worker.

Of course the above is easy to say if you are not struggling to pay the bills each month. Therefore, I'd also assume it would depend to some extent on the salary being paid. A peron making less than $10 an hour (just to pick a number) is probably going to be more likely to take the extra cash than a person making $20 an hour and so on as you increase the numbers.

My personal experience is that just about any qualified employee I've ever interviewed has wanted to know whether they will receive health insurance and seemed to consider it a priority. Now to be fair, I've never given them an option of paying them more versus giving insurance (nor could I legaly of course). But I do know that many people have stated it as a priority.

This message was edited by QQQ on 01/02/05 00:35 ET.

I would agree with this, I would also expect a mature and responsible employee to have car insurance. But I'm not going to be the proxy bill payer for that either.


All of are techs do have MSAs. For most healthy single men under 30 this makes sense. You pay for doctor visits out of pocket (from your tax free savings account) if you have a accident or serous illness that's covered. A 20ish male can get a MSA for about $40-$45 a month. Not a bad deal.



No one I employee makes less that $10 an hour. This includes our receptionist.


True.


Also true.

you guys should just copy us with a public medical system :-)

How's that working for you?

works OK why?

We pay for basic health care, in Canada, through taxes, but that is what the vast majority of Canadians want (this was a big issue last election). Socialized medicine does have it's own issues, but everyone has equal access to the services offered.

Nothing in life is for free.

In addition, I believe that one of the items in the Bush administration plans for rebuilding Iraq also includes a public health care system ???

FRR: no one said anything about free in this thread. I think it is a sad man that thinks he will get anything for free (but it does make good marketing sense to push that).

on the other hand I really did not understand augsys' question so I decided to give that answer.

Honestly I am a firm believer in the system

Anthony, I believe that your answer was appropriate to Augsys, however some people are under the assumption that social medicine is free.

I too believe in socialized medicine and so do 78% of Canadians.

I agree, just meant that I think the guys here are smart enough to understand that.

Honestly a public system is a lot like a private one with insurance. The insurance payment you are paying today will be used for someone that needs treatment now, when you get sick you don't pay and your premium and that of others will be used to pay for you. The big differences
1) everyone is paying to their capacity (i.e. taxes) and is covered equally depending on their needs
2) government and medical institutions not trying to make a profit
3) even though doctors are well paid they are still public servants and so cost can be controlled.


anyways, I guess we should let them get back to their original topic, my original post was meant a bit in jest and did not mean to derail the thread

Don't forget the pharmacutical companies who seem to be doing pretty well for themselves these days.

Also, to concur with QQQ's earlier post, I should also point out that I once turned down a pretty good job offer based on the fact that the employer was firmly against offering a health plan.

MSAs are fine and good, but what's an employee who's making 30K going to do if his or her child, spouse, etc. develops cancer or needs major surgery?

Ask anyone who's needed medical treatment and didn't have insurance if they were treated the same way on an ER visit or upon being admitted to a hospital.

Before a Dr. even looks at you, they want to figure out how they're going to be able to get paid for their services.

In short.....Health insurance sucks to have to buy, but it's a neccessary evil.

AHEM, From your post I don't think you understand how a MSA works.

Here's how the MSA works. Rather than pay a high monthly premium for a policy with a low deductible and low co-pays, you opt for a high deductible policy (to help in the event of an emergency or major expense like cancer or major surgery) and you make regular deposits into a medical savings account (to cover the minor expenses).

Deposits made toward the medical savings plan are 100% tax-deductible, and can be used towards any out-of-pocket medical expense, like satisfying your deductible, covering office visits, etc.

And any medical savings account funds you don't use will remain in the account, drawing interest on a tax-deferred basis, until needed for future medical expenses or retirement.


With my personal plan, I pay about $140 a month, my deductible is $5100. The $5100 goes in the savings account, where it grows tax free. I pay for everything up the deductible out of the savings account, after the deductible is met the insurance pays 100%.

The last standard insurance we had (a PPO plan) cost $380 the deductible was $1000 after the deductible they paid 80%. It doesn't take a math genius to figure out that at best this a wash.

The big advantage is if your stay healthy and keep feeding the savings account, your building wealth instead of the insurance company.

Now that said, this is not for everyone. People with preexisting conditions or big risk factors for certain illnesses should look at traditional insurance as should anyone who is not fiscally disciplined.