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Question about lighting control, one load, two occupancy switches
This thread has 29 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 30.
Post 16 made on Sunday November 25, 2018 at 17:10
Fins
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On November 25, 2018 at 11:46, highfigh said...
If you have an occupancy sensor (or two of them), why do you need three way switching? Assuming the sensors are to avoid the need to manually turn the lights on (and this is the reason I installed a motion sensor switch in the laundry area of my house), the sensors will do what you need without requiring the more complex wiring. You could rewire at one end to eliminate the switch.

Probably a big area with entrances from multiple points.
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 17 made on Sunday November 25, 2018 at 17:50
davidcasemore
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On November 25, 2018 at 08:04, Ernie Gilman said...
Thanks, David.
A crucial point is that the Lutron note you linked to talks about a Lutron In-wall Sensor, while we're talking about an Occupancy Sensor Switch, that is, the sensor is buried inside the switch enclosure, with no access to the actual sensor wiring. As you saw, that means is no possibility of putting the SENSORS in parallel.

In the link to the Lutron Forum, the OP is asking the same thing you're asking. The responder says "no" by explaining what would happen if the 2nd switch is fed from the output of the first - not understanding the question where he wants to feed both switches with a hot wire and use both load wires for the load. The responders answer includes part numbers which match what I suggested - a wireless Maestro, a companion Maestro and a wireless occ sensor.


People normally don't put lighting and outlets on the same breaker, but I bet there will be complaints, and I can even see this product being recalled, if anyone ever installs a MS-OPS2H on a circuit protected by a GFCI. It should instantly pop a GFCI.

Yes, you would think that the small current flow on the equipment grounding wire would be enough to trip the GFCI. An ammeter and the GFCI specs would tell you.

Or am I wrong and lighting circuits must be separate from outlet circuits?

For dwelling units they are often on the same branch circuit unless it's a dedicated kitchen appliance circuit or laundry circuit for example. But general purpose outlets and lighting are typically together on a circuit. In commercial buildings it's a different story. This is because the lighting may be 277 volts. I don't believe the NEC prohibits this mix in commercial buildings but it's pretty much standard on every electrical drawing I've ever seen. That way, a short at an outlet doesn't leave the area in the dark. I suppose that could cause panic in a commercial space.

Did you ever see if the existing load is greater than 2 amps? If so then I would suggest the battery operated occ sensors and a wireless Maestro at one end and a companion Maestro at the other. The battery in the occ sensor lasts for ten years I think. You can install several of them to control the same switch.
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
Post 18 made on Monday November 26, 2018 at 10:35
highfigh
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On November 25, 2018 at 17:10, Fins said...
Probably a big area with entrances from multiple points.

How big does it need to be if it's a mud room?
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 19 made on Tuesday November 27, 2018 at 02:17
BrettLee3232
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Put in one sensor & do a decora blank on the other Switch. Go to your fridge & get a beer. Sit at your favorite spot on the couch & watch a Christmas movie with your family. Easy peezy lemon squeezy!


P.S I believe code now is lights and plugs have to be arc fault protected. So lights and plugs can be on the same circuit. Depends on how the sparky wired it.
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OP | Post 20 made on Tuesday November 27, 2018 at 07:32
Ernie Gilman
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On November 27, 2018 at 02:17, BrettLee3232 said...
Put in one sensor & do a decora blank on the other Switch. Go to your fridge & get a beer. Sit at your favorite spot on the couch & watch a Christmas movie with your family. Easy peezy lemon squeezy!

You guys would really be a barrel of laughs in a handicapped situation. I've defined what is NEEDED.

P.S I believe code now is lights and plugs have to be arc fault protected. So lights and plugs can be on the same circuit. Depends on how the sparky wired it.

If it depends on how the half-watt wired it, then it's not defined by code.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 21 made on Tuesday November 27, 2018 at 09:51
Fins
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You could always buy the right parts for the job.

How big is this room that one motion sensor won’t work?
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 22 made on Tuesday November 27, 2018 at 09:58
King of typos
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Just got off of chat with Brian from Lutron...

Either the LRF2-OCR2B-P-WH: [Link: lutron.com] or the LRF2-OWLB-P-WH: [Link: lutron.com]
Brian W. 09:54
The wall switches would be the MRF2-8ANS-WH on one side of the 3-way and the MA-AS-WH on the other side of the 3-way. [Link: lutron.com]

So there are your options.

KOT
OP | Post 23 made on Tuesday November 27, 2018 at 21:56
Ernie Gilman
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Did you happen to ask Brian my question? If he said no, did you get a technically competent answer as to why not?

Once again, the answer cannot be used. There are two single gang boxes with 3-way switches in them and two travelers between. THAT'S ALL. Separate sensors and wiring to/from sensors IS OUT.

Fins, just trust me that the room can only work as I described it.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 24 made on Tuesday November 27, 2018 at 23:38
King of typos
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I told Brian...

Two wall switches and one load. One switch box receives the feed, the other is the load. Looking to install two occupancy switches at each switch box to control one load. This is a finished hallway/mud room.

He said that Lutron does not have anything like that. Soooo he gives me two options. Both of which you are very capable of using, because they are wireless occupancy sensors. They work with Lutron RF products and have an average 10 year battery life.

Without looking into it, get a master switch on/off or even dimmer that has FR ability. And a companion to that. One of the aforementioned RF occupancy sensors and be done with it.

KOT
Post 25 made on Tuesday November 27, 2018 at 23:51
davidcasemore
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On November 27, 2018 at 23:38, King of typos said...
He said that Lutron does not have anything like that.

Like what? The part number Ernie has? The one he wants to wire two of together off a common feed?

I said right at the very start of this thread that a wireless Maestro and battery occ sensor would do the trick so you're not suggesting anything unique.

But neither is the original question being answered: Can you wire two of these switches together without having them explode/flame/smoke/melt?

Ernie - you may have no other choice than to bench test this and see what happens!
Fins: Still Slamming' His Trunk on pilgrim's Small Weenie - One Trunk at a Time!
Post 26 made on Wednesday November 28, 2018 at 08:44
highfigh
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On November 27, 2018 at 21:56, Ernie Gilman said...
Did you happen to ask Brian my question? If he said no, did you get a technically competent answer as to why not?

Once again, the answer cannot be used. There are two single gang boxes with 3-way switches in them and two travelers between. THAT'S ALL. Separate sensors and wiring to/from sensors IS OUT.

Fins, just trust me that the room can only work as I described it.

What are the room's dimensions?
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
OP | Post 27 made on Wednesday November 28, 2018 at 08:45
Ernie Gilman
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Thanks, David. At this point I'm mostly fascinated with the lengths people are going to for information that avoids answering the exact question.

For instance:
On November 27, 2018 at 23:38, King of typos said...
I told Brian...

Two wall switches and one load...

See? RIGHT THERE! This was THE MOMENT to mention THE MODEL NUMBER I GAVE YOU.

King, this makes it look like when you have a question about a detail on a product, you call the manufacturer, you tell them what your technical issue is, then you hope and pray they just happen to discuss the exact model you want to know about. (As for me, I think you'd name the product, but I'm left wondering why you didn't do that in this case.)

Cue Maxwell Smart saying "you came this close."

He said that Lutron does not have anything like that.

At which point you objected and said "it looks like this product should do it. How about this?" Then you'd follow up with questions and actually discuss the thing.

Maybe the part that switches is a triac and you're not prepared to ask whether there's some problem if, say, the input and output of a triac are both hot at equal potential while the gate is low. (I'm trying to remember just how triacs work.)

Was that too harsh?
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 28 made on Wednesday November 28, 2018 at 09:20
Fins
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Ernie, is your phone broke?
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

OP | Post 29 made on Wednesday November 28, 2018 at 22:53
Ernie Gilman
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Hey, I asked for what people knew, not what they can research. If they're going to start researching things I didn't ask about, I see no reason not to tell them when they're going in the wrong direction. My critiques might even improve their research skills :-)

After all, we will have income problems if we "answer" customers by never addressing the issues that the customer raises.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 30 made on Thursday November 29, 2018 at 00:11
Fins
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The irony is you think your not listening to answers you don’t like is going to improve others skills
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

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