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Topic:
Episode EA-AMP-12D-70A Amplifier Strange Behavior
This thread has 17 replies. Displaying posts 1 through 15.
Post 1 made on Tuesday April 25, 2017 at 19:37
djsvetljo
Lurking Member
Joined:
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April 2017
7
So a new customer with existing equipment, the amp in the subject. I got a request to increase volume if possible in one of the zones. Source outputs 2 volts, input gain on the Epsiode was at 50%. If I increase it, zone goes "red" on the front LED and sound is almost fully muted. It kind of looks like clipping protection.

It is not described in the manual though.

So I check the specs - bridged should give us twice the power (obviously not twice the volume but it should be at least sensible) and I had 2 zone available - problem solved. Speakers are Klipsch, 100w 8 ohm, dual 6.5" woofer and a horn. So I bridge 2 channels/zones and hock up - "the assumed clipping protection" process described above now kicks in at 30% of the input gain and the perceived volume isn't louder at all. WTF I ask my self. Tested every single channel/zone and it acts the same way both bridged and unbridged. Next, I keep one speaker in a bridged mode (140watts they say) and the other speaker in normal which for 8ohm speaker should be 50watts. I turn the input gain up till it clips, then slightly back for each speaker and then I listen - they sound exactly the same, perfect balance. Didn't have SPL meter with me.

I called Episode support and they couldn't explain to me what's going on. They don't think it's a fault (all 12 channels act like that). So I think what's going on is their specs are s*1t and the fact that it clips at much lower "input gain" when bridged makes think it isn't really an input gain. The guy on the phone try to even tell me that because the speakers have 300 peak power "it pulls more power from the amp that it can handle" which I think doesn't make sense.

What do you guys think? I am curious because it's the first time I deal with Episode and other than the bridging issue, it sounded really good.


Continuous Power Output
All channels driven
50 watts RMS at 8 ohms
70 watts RMS at 4 ohms
Bridged Power Output
All channels driven
140 Watts per channel RMS at 8 ohms
Note: Maintain 8 ohm minimum when using bridge mode
Input Sensitivity 500mV
Input Impedance 20,000 ohms
S/N ratio 95 dB
Frequency Response 20 Hz to 20 kHz
Distortion (Unbridged) 0.1% THD 20 Hz-20 kHz
Distortion (Bridged) 0.1% THD 20 Hz-20 kHz

Last edited by djsvetljo on April 26, 2017 07:32.
Post 2 made on Tuesday April 25, 2017 at 21:15
william david design
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
March 2005
2,943
Any chance there's a hidden volume control on the speakers?
The snap is a very robust amp and I had this problem on a takeover client who "forgot" he had volume controls hidden in his cabinet that he never touched :(
Defectus tuus consilium carpere discrimen mihi non constituit.
OP | Post 3 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 07:30
djsvetljo
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
April 2017
7
On April 25, 2017 at 21:15, william david design said...
Any chance there's a hidden volume control on the speakers?
The snap is a very robust amp and I had this problem on a takeover client who "forgot" he had volume controls hidden in his cabinet that he never touched :(

No, after discovering the issue I hooked up directly with 5ft speaker cables.
Post 4 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 08:22
ctjordan33
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
July 2016
24
On April 25, 2017 at 19:37, djsvetljo said...
So a new customer with existing equipment, the amp in the subject. I got a request to increase volume if possible in one of the zones. Source outputs 2 volts, input gain on the Epsiode was at 50%. If I increase it, zone goes "red" on the front LED and sound is almost fully muted. It kind of looks like clipping protection.

It is not described in the manual though.

So I check the specs - bridged should give us twice the power (obviously not twice the volume but it should be at least sensible) and I had 2 zone available - problem solved. Speakers are Klipsch, 100w 8 ohm, dual 6.5" woofer and a horn. So I bridge 2 channels/zones and hock up - "the assumed clipping protection" process described above now kicks in at 30% of the input gain and the perceived volume isn't louder at all. WTF I ask my self. Tested every single channel/zone and it acts the same way both bridged and unbridged. Next, I keep one speaker in a bridged mode (140watts they say) and the other speaker in normal which for 8ohm speaker should be 50watts. I turn the input gain up till it clips, then slightly back for each speaker and then I listen - they sound exactly the same, perfect balance. Didn't have SPL meter with me.

I called Episode support and they couldn't explain to me what's going on. They don't think it's a fault (all 12 channels act like that). So I think what's going on is their specs are s*1t and the fact that it clips at much lower "input gain" when bridged makes think it isn't really an input gain. The guy on the phone try to even tell me that because the speakers have 300 peak power "it pulls more power from the amp that it can handle" which I think doesn't make sense.

What do you guys think? I am curious because it's the first time I deal with Episode and other than the bridging issue, it sounded really good.

Continuous Power Output
All channels driven
50 watts RMS at 8 ohms
70 watts RMS at 4 ohms
Bridged Power Output
All channels driven
140 Watts per channel RMS at 8 ohms
Note: Maintain 8 ohm minimum when using bridge mode
Input Sensitivity 500mV
Input Impedance 20,000 ohms
S/N ratio 95 dB
Frequency Response 20 Hz to 20 kHz
Distortion (Unbridged) 0.1% THD 20 Hz-20 kHz
Distortion (Bridged) 0.1% THD 20 Hz-20 kHz

There's a document about the dials on the back of that amp, it's an input gain.

[Link: snapav.com]
Post 5 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 08:54
lippavisual
Senior Member
Joined:
Posts:
December 2007
1,463
Are you able to turn down the output from your source?? I'd start there. Maybe its too hot going into the amp?

I've used these amps several times and haven't ever run into this issue.
Post 6 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 09:01
highfigh
Loyal Member
Joined:
Posts:
September 2004
8,322
Did you measure the resistance on any of the speakers? Also, make sure none of the speakers are connected to any others. If you disconnect a zone and see that the negatives are connected, start looking for something that is causing it.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 7 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 09:44
DGMOORE78
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2010
6
I'm sure you checked this, but double check the wiring at the amplifier (I've messed this up before). You MUST rewire the amplifier for it to work in bridge mode (versus "normal" mode). The CH1+ will now be you NEGATIVE and your CH2 will be the POSITIVE. Hope this helps.
David G. Moore
Vice President of Engineering
SnapAV
OP | Post 8 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 09:52
djsvetljo
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
April 2017
7
Answers for the above 3:

I have double checked the wiring (when in bridged, the single speakers connect to the 2 outer terminals of each zone)

I lost my impedance meter so I tested with ohm meter ~ around 8ohms

During the testing, I moved the amp to the speakers and connected directly with 5ft 14awg wire, to remove IW from the picture.

Turning the output gain of the source down? - Tested with high end Denon CD/Media player, 2volts output, which standard. I have read the document for the gain dial but in my case - the document is worthless as the amp "self protect" against such issue. Again, input gain on the amp was at 50% max (it starts going into protect pass that).

My guess: Document is old, they have updated the amp and it now has more aggressive protection.
OP | Post 9 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 10:02
djsvetljo
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
April 2017
7
On April 26, 2017 at 08:54, lippavisual said...
Are you able to turn down the output from your source?? I'd start there. Maybe its too hot going into the amp?

I've used these amps several times and haven't ever run into this issue.

Have you ever used them in bridge mode and have you compared same speakers vs non bridged?

Have you used them for floor standing speakers or just in-walls/ceiling ?

Last edited by djsvetljo on April 26, 2017 10:47.
Post 10 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 13:49
DGMOORE78
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2010
6
2V is a very hot output. Have you tried a different source to see if the CD player is clipping the input op-amp? The red lights you described definitely indicates the amplifier is protecting itself. There are only 3 things that will cause the amp to do this:

1.) Incorrect wiring at the amp (which you have already checked)
2.) Impedance lower than 8 ohms. The amp is stable at 4 ohms in "Normal mode", but must have an 8 ohm load when bridged
3.) Clipped input signal.
David G. Moore
Vice President of Engineering
SnapAV
OP | Post 11 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 14:05
djsvetljo
Lurking Member
Joined:
Posts:
April 2017
7
Since when 2v is "VERY HOT"? May be in the 70-80s it was but since the birth of a CD player everything has been 2v.

I will check it regardless.
Post 12 made on Wednesday April 26, 2017 at 16:20
lippavisual
Senior Member
Joined:
Posts:
December 2007
1,463
On April 26, 2017 at 10:02, djsvetljo said...
Have you ever used them in bridge mode and have you compared same speakers vs non bridged?

Have you used them for floor standing speakers or just in-walls/ceiling ?

Yes I've used them in bridge mode and have had no issues.

No I haven't used them with floorstanders because typically with those, they require more power than that amp will give.

Sounds like your source output is too hot to me or you've got a defective amp. Wouldn't be the first time on those, especially if it's an original model.
Post 13 made on Thursday April 27, 2017 at 08:35
kwkshift
Active Member
Joined:
Posts:
February 2004
508
Could you try using your cell phone as a source and experiment with the volume on that?
Or, some nice CD players have headphone outputs on the face with a headphone gain knob. Maybe either of those ideas can lend a clue. (??)
Post 14 made on Friday April 28, 2017 at 00:20
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
Joined:
Posts:
December 2001
30,104
On April 26, 2017 at 13:49, DGMOORE78 said...
2V is a very hot output. Have you tried a different source to see if the CD player is clipping the input op-amp?

This exact point is where the note's information falls apart.

The note says it's a gain control. Gain is the amount of power increase when a signal is amplified. So... that control actually modifies the gain of a stage? Nope. At the very least, the best way to change the gain is to adjust the negative feedback of the amp, and any noise introduced by the control would be massively amplified. Bad, bad idea.

EVERY volume control on every A/V receiver, for instance, is not a gain control; it's a signal attenuator. Going to the watering system metaphor, a gain control is a pump pressure adjustment while a volume control is a faucet. The fact that we think of "turning up the audio" and "turning off the water" are opposite concepts doesn't mean they do anything different from one another.

If the input to the Snap amp is an opamp and too hot of a signal cannot be brought down below the level at which the opamp will distort, then Snap has created the problem. If the input is some passive circuit followed by an attenuator, then they can cut down the too strong 2 volts to a value that won't cause the following stage(s) to distort.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 15 made on Monday December 9, 2019 at 00:34
Dsiddiqui
Junior Member
Joined:
Posts:
December 2019
1
Hell everyone
I have the episodeEA- AMP 12D 70A amp. I am based in Calgary
The lights in front of amp showing channels in red how can I fix it and what does this mean.
Is there any place in Calgary I can fix it
Danish
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