One day while at a job site, I notice that this old man has a McIntosh amp in a cabinet. We start talking about it and how he has had it for 30 years and then he turns it on. The thing sounds great. Ever since then I have been hooked.

So I can't get this thing out of my head, I start checking them out on EBay, but I don't know much about them. I would prefer to pick up an older unit, I wouldn't use it much, just something to add to a collection. ( I have a 1912 Victrola that I inherited from my father.)

Have any of you guys had any experience with these older units? If so, what speakers would you recommend, that sort of thing.

Thanks.

There is probably an entire section on these things at avsforum.com.

There is a whole section of the industry dedicated to using all things tube. At our store, we have a hybrid CD Player that I think has transistorized and IC-ified digital circuitry, with tube outputs. The brand name is Jolida.

In the seventies and eighties, one of the collecting quirks of rich Japanese people was to collect old tube equipment, mainly McIntosh and Marantz tube stuff.

Dynaco also had a bunch, and their units could be factory-assembled or purchased as kits!

Good luck with these brands...and google.

A TUBA and an AMP???
You guys are starting to scare me.

You should get an old turntable and some scratchy LP's to go with that tube amp. Just kidding. Tubes made a huge rennassaince about ten years ago, and even in the recording industry (tube mic pre amps). I seriously considered buying a tube system for my house about a year ago just becuase I think the technology is esoteric, and they look cool. Some say the sound is warmer, richer. These are subjective terms, and in reality, distortion of signal is greater than the digital electronics and technology of today. Maybe that's why vinyl made a comeback, maybe that percieved innacuracy of the playback signal and inherent noise provided a pleasing sound. If you are going to go tubes, you will need efficient speakers, but one thing is for sure, they sure look cool. Dynaco makes used to make a model called the Dynakit 70, lots of those on Ebay from time to time. The older Macintosh stuff is rare and expensive, but it looks impressive

Check out Audio Classics in New York State,

They know this stuff inside and out, up and down. Great company.

Be aware that owning tube equipment is something of an exercise in masochism. You have to hear harsh sound for a while as you burn in the tubes, then you listen contentedly for about fifteen minutes, and then you start worrying about whether your tubes are going bad. Couple that with finding a good source for tubes, which is sort of like a snipe hunt.....

That being said, best sounding equipment I ever had was a McIntosh integrated. Sigh.

I own Carry Audio 300B Triode Mono block amps and a SP8 tube preamp. These are the same amps Jon Atkinson called equalizers and I would not trade them for any other amp in the world. Inefficient and pwer limited, when mated with the correct speakers ( such as my Celestion SL-700 or the Triad Gold Monitors ) they cause the hair on the back of your head to stand up and you stop and listen to music.

Tubes, like turntables, have become better as they have become less popular. Russian and Checkoslovian tubes have become brought better tubes to market, the original Western Electric machines have come out of moth balls and are making tubes ( especially 300B ) tubes and transformers technology has improved by leaps and bounds. Even horn speakers have had a come back and with 104db sensitivity even power limited tube amps can make concert audio levels possible. Tubes are different than transisitor amps as Fred has suggested in that a bad tube can cause the amp to blow up, it takes time for the system to warm up and sound its best, and tubes run HOT, even for class A or class A/B amps, which means that you may need to to wipe your brow as you enjoy some of the most seductive sounds you have ever heard. They need air and if you have small children you will need a protective gage to prevent the children from receiving 3rd degree burns ( should they touch a tube).

However, if you do not intend to listen critically, I would suggest going with a distributed audio system and a transistor amp. But if you wish to glimpse a moment of musical magic and see into the music as if you were at a concert tube amps will reproduce moments of audio realism like no other piece of electronics I know.

Alan

Alan, you are a moron. I hate "audio-philes" such as yourself posting non-sense about things you know nothing about so you can feel somehow sophisticated. Besides their many drawbacks, tubes are non-linear devices which means they distort the original sound recording. If you like this, fine, just don't pretend it's "more realistic", because the opposite is the truth. Why don't you just buy yourself an equalizer and crush all the frequencies you don't like. I hope you don't bullshit your customers this badly, moron.

P.S. Solutions has only one n.

This message was edited by Thon on 09/27/04 14:33 ET.

AND SOUNDS DAMNED GOOD!

McIntosh. Using that other spelling, whatever it might really be used for, will just make it really really hard to find this gear.

Wow, you are certainly not from the "reasonable people can disagree" camp, are you?


DUDE ! ! !

Transistors are non-linear! The horns that were used before microphones were widely introduced in about 1924 were, guess what, non-linear! Tape recording is non-linear, which is why a thing called "bias" had to be applied to the record signal. Tape is non-linear, which is why an EQ curve was necessary! All kinds of phonograph recording media are non-linear!

I will just BET that the CD recording media itself is non-linear, and some kind of jiggerypokery has to be employed to create zeroes and ones that do not look like smears and black holes!



Yes, but "moron" obviously does not refer to a member of a group that has limited membership.

Look, can we all agree that the most "realistic" system is the one that distorts the original recording the LEAST. I think as a group we should all be able to subscribe to this. If somebody likes distorted sound, fine, I'm just tired of people hearing differences in equipment and ASSUMING it's better. What's worse is so called professionals telling people it's more "realistic". This is, in my opinion, fraud. I was giving Alan the benefilt of the doubt by calling him a moron.


Transistors are very linear in their ACTIVE region which is where the amplification is done.

The horns that were

Better look up the definition of "bias".

had to be applied to the record

CD's are digital

and some kind of jiggerypokery

Agreed, the list is quite large. Educate yourself and avoid this list.

I hate "audio-philes"

Thon:
Have you been speaking with my wife? You both seem to have independently reached the same conclusion. I am sure you can find many others who would agree with your opinion of me but even if 70 per cent agreed with you that I was a moran that would not make your conclusion accurate. I believe tubes are seductive despite their measurements.

Have you ever listened to a tube amp? Or are we coming from the measurements-are-everything school? I am willing to concede that when measured tubes do not come off all that good. We could debate the "realism" question until we are blue in the face but I have never felt goose bumps from a transistor amp and I have from a tube system. If you feel different does that invalidate my experience? Or is it that you only believe what your measurements tell you. Then you argree that CDs give you perfect sound forever.

If tubes did not sound so damned good why would most guitar amps use tubes? Why do so many record mastering sudios use tube amps to cut commercial CDs? If you are near NY you are welcome to come over and listen and make your own judgement? Or are you from the "I do not believe what my ears tell me only what is on my scope" school?

I am not going to get into an argument with you about tube vs transistors. To each his own. If you have ever lestened to a tube amp I doubt you would write the nonesense you did above. How you come to the conclusion I am an audiophile just because I own tube power and preamps is beyond me. I could just as well be a music lover who let his ears chose his equipment ( which is what I did and I paid retail for this equipment ) Would it make you feel better if I also confessed that I own a Macintosh MG7270 transistor amp? Or a Carver M-400? Adcom GFA 555?


As for the mis-spelling of solutions you need to talk with the moderator. I mis-typed solutionns when I signed on and the system will not permit me to correct it. Now if you have a solution that will permit me to correct this error I am all aflutter. Or maybe I am from the you will remember me because I mis-spelled department.

Alan

This message was edited by Audible Solutionns on 09/27/04 17:50 ET.

Alan,

The only problem I have with your reply is that you are telling people that tubes are more realistic than transistors, and this is simply not true. They are, in fact, the least realistic of modern amplification technology. As I stated, the fact that many people prefer them, for what ever reason, is fine. I just don't like professionals, like us, misleading customers. Sorry, if went over board on you, there's just so much snake oil in our business that I go nuts sometimes.

Oh, don't hold back; tell us how you REALLY feel!

Thon:
I am aware of what the engineering texts say about tubes and I also know how tubes measure. But have you ever listened to a tube amp, especially a direct heated triode design? How have you reached the conclusion that tubes "are, in fact, the least realistic of modern amplification technology." I know how they measure and nonetheless, I still purchased a tube amp. The experience is sensual, in much the same way a good, live concert is. The problem is that there are fewer and fewer of these concerts and if you have young children as I do you do get to go out as much as you did when you were younger and had fewer responsibilities. Mostly you only have spectagulars for which you have the joy of paying $125/ticket plus parking for terrible sound and an indifferent performance - and in my case you are happy to get the chance to attend that tepid performance.

Of course, I do not install tubes in a typical installation. Tube equipment is not user friendly and sound quality is not high on my design criteria. Equipment control is high on my design criteria. But I have heard many different amplifier designs from most of the leading high end audio companies and nothing in my experiece provides the musical experience that a tube amp does. I could give a **** how it measures. In the debate of measurement vs ears or objective vs subjective I side with my ears and subjectivity. I suspect the difference is that I know how my amps perform on the test bench and prefer them anyway. You only know how they perform on the test bench ( I hope ) but have never put your prejiduces to the test by giving them a listen. And I just sold my first pair of Triad Gold monitors and the client auditioned them with my 300B tube amps and he is also purchasing this amp ( not from me as I do not sell them. )

Enter one of those snooty, high end salons and pretend you have a high end system when they qualify you, and give a listen to a tube amp, especially a triode design and compare it to a transistor design. Forget the engineering texts and try to put aside your preconeived notions. Let your ears decide and while you may not feel the price/performance ratio is sufficient to overcome your objections you may also come to respect an opinion diametrically oposed to your own. You may also find, that when it comes to subjective terms such as sound quality, the engineering texts leave a lot to be desired and terms such as linear and non linear do not have any bearing on what you are hearing or what sounds good. Now if you belong to the "if it cannot be measured it does not exist " crowd then there is little to be discussed. Even Mr. Atkenson, after he panned the Carry 300B amps had to admit they sounded damned good, too good to explain their poor measured performance.

And could you please point out where I wrote that tube amps were more realistic than transistor designs? I believe "seductive" and "musical magic" were the words I used. Skybird gave tubes a listen and came away impressed. You might too. [added for clarity]
Alan

This message was edited by Audible Solutionns on 09/27/04 21:59 ET.

Even horn speakers have

You would need a lot of tubes to provide concert grade SPL in any venue on a leg of a North American tour. Concert or production sound is all about providing the highest SPL in the smallest package. If you can cut one semi from the tour with smaller amp racks and more efficient and higher output boxes, then it's one less truck to be unloaded and loaded at every venue. it adds up to huge bucks. That's why they kick the crap out all of the speakers during the tour. At the end, they remagnetize them and recone them all. Less costly than bringing more gear.

I won't argue with subjective listening. It's like art or music. If you like it, it's good, case closed. There is a reason why vintage items are both sought after, and have value. To anyone that knows electronic synthesizers, try finding a mini moog for under a few thousand dollars out there. Why? they have a distinct sound that hasn't been emulated succesfully by anyone yet.

This message was edited by teknobeam1 on 09/28/04 23:11 ET.