Hi,
I have always been a believer is uninterruptible power supplies, however they just to don't seem to last. I have always used APC brand products and seem to get only a year or two until failure occurs, I have them at multiple location's so I don't see it as a power company problem, I have lost another this morning and as well as completely failing, it caused computer file damage in the process. Does anyone have suggestions as to reliable products for basic computer ups's

I will be looking at the new offerings by Panamax at the CEDIA expo. I heard that they will have some UPS options for us.

RWI - you're not alone. I seem to have to replace them about every two years. Ahhh, nothing like planned obsolescence!

HELLO ALL !
the problem w/ using lowend UPS systems that designed for a whole different application than what we are starting to see a market for. that's how it always goes , thought , as we A/V HOME AUTOMATION folks would not fund the R&D , marketing , BULK BULK BULK in product, and be ready to "hot swap" out our new UPS sys. when joe shit the rag mans Got a better model out.

however , the fly by night it & cis fields and even the solid gold collar geeks working w/ a normal channel or cis solution provider has to subscribe to the "standard" ti room hardware.

there systems have redundant systems that can load balance whatever problem to come along. the good thing about CIS, telco , cctv , etc is that it's made just for that level of harmonic quaility , so yo can get more bang for your buck , plus , it is pretty straight forward to figure up your power needs , be it in amp /hr's or H.P. cranking out watts.

i would think that most a/V ers are using small (25 0 - 650 VA ) all in one unit. not a bad idea , just way to little. i have seen mostly A/Vers starting to put UPS' on gear like DVR , HTPC , Fireball , (etc. cd / dvd jukeboxes) and it's not a bad idea to have a UPS online if any type of media transferring is going on , A/D OR D/A doesn't matter. i even have my a/v control sys on line , that way i can still use all of my zone keypads , remote ir , rf comm. , sec. sys , etc. so depending on your config. , you can see very fast where 12v12Ahr batt. just wont cut it. that may save you if you have service outs often , that only last for a few seconds .

the other thing we fail to realize is propper cooling. a apc ups 650 w/ 1 batt. factory fresh will do what is says it will do , a small pc 15 min. or so , but thats where you really need to figure your load, and find a ball park time that you would like to be up for , and then go for surplus CIS gear on ebay. Figure on New batteries , and that is a good start.

keep in mind that IMHO only the critical electronic gear should be put on a UPS scheme. you would not want to put any amps , or high currant units online if you can help it. the high ac demand will overload any UPS system that your wife , husband , landlord , or climate controlled room would allow!

i use to burn up small UPS batteries with in a year , and i got to studying the in's and out's ,,, and in my case , it was always too little VA , in to little of a space to have good forced air for cooling. thats why i say buy surplus , look for a higher voltage battery bank , and maybe one w/ an aux. jumpper cable to go to another slave batt. box.

now for the other gear that didn't get the UPS , for sure invest in Richard Gray surge system.

one last thing , if you can at all get your handy elect. to wire in your ups's by the breaker box , if you can run dedicated ac lines.

sorry for this being so long . i just hope by learning curve can help someone.
retrobrew
[email protected]

A relative is in charge of hardware in the ITS department of a pretty well-wired college nearby. They have wireless on campus, have used IR and now wireless connections to off-campus frat houses, computer workstations all over the place. His comment on this thread was:

"Looks pretty normal from my experience. UPS's last 2 or 3 years and then they die. We buy the brand name APC's too."


Are we expecting UPSs to do something they are not designed to do? The problems are batteries that are kept charged, not used, not exercised, that we expect to have work for several years. Maybe the power should be killed to a UPS to take the battery down to 1/4 charge every couple of days! Who knows? Has anybody ever asked the manufacturer? How long would you expect your car battery to last if you charged it continuously and never used it? If these batteries have any of the dreaded NiCd "memory" effect, it is a miracle that they last more than two or three months!

In the most informative post, retrobrew's, he alludes to but does not quite hit the point that you want to be sure that your UPS will have enough watt-hours (not just VA, which is the only thing noted by everybody; TIME is of the essence!) to either carry your critical equipment through an expected time of power loss, or to allow you to shut down. Computers can be programmed to shut down in response to a power loss, but you could not do that with A/V equipment.

I am a little confussed reading retrobrew's comments but I think I get the gest of them...maybe he started a little early....pack some up and send it here! Maybe retrobrew can provide some links to some places to buy quality refurb units and maybe even recommend some models.

Let me first say that I believe in a well designed, separate sub-panel near the equipment rack with proper grounding on all my installations that I can convince the customer to do them in. A properly designed system with a whole house style surge, industrial filtering and/or isolation transformers, etc. is the only way to go when the budget allows, however, many of the installations don't have the budget.

With that said, "off the shelf" products are better than nothing.

I agree that APC units fail after a year or two and, in many cases, it is easier to replace the entire unit rather than buy the replacement battery(ies) ($25ea.), but let's keep things in perspective: An APC 650VA or larger model can be found on sale for the $100 range or even less. Even the expensive stores have them for well under $200. I use these for phone systems, single PCs (no monitor), a home automation controller, etc. and they work fine, and, if it is set up properly, it should not cause data loss when the battery fails. Maybe RWI has experienced some other failure, of which, in over 10 years of using APC, TrippLite, etc. I have never had a problem with unless it was struck by lightening.

On mid-sized jobs I use either their rack mount versions at $1,000+ and they last at least twice as long. If the customer is close, even with an hour or two of labor, the value is still on the side of the cheap model, but the project was larger and the customer expects more.

On all my larger jobs and even the smaller ones that customer's see the value in spending more (their call....after all part of my job is to educate) I use ones from Transtector which go for $2,000 and up. They have superior parts, rack mountable and have front accessible, hot swappable batteries (and, YES, they fail too).

The same can be said for surge protection. Panamax iand Monster are better than nothing. A silicone avalanche diode technology model is the best....try Transtector, Transparent and others.

Want to clean up you power for better audio/video? Start with the circuit and outlet, add inexpensive filtering from Panamax and Monster for the next level, Transparent, Richard Gray and others for the best systems.

Keep it in perspective. Yes APC fails after a while, but it does what it is supposed to during that time. Want better? Buy better.

Randy

I'd be alright with a simple battery replacement, however as well as battery's I have internal failures of the units requiring replacement. This is what irks me

Ernie,

Well put. I was in the process of typing my long winded response when you snuck yours in there!

I meant to mention that we don't expect to keep things running for long....mainly to smooth the curves during short outages and/or fluctuations. It is a PIA to wait on your home controller to reboot after a 2 sec fluctuation!

Randy

I do a lot of UPS replacements. We tried just replacing the batteries but found that most of the time the old batteries had swelled up and could not be removed from the UPS. Cheaper in man-hours to just replace the UPS.

Does anyone use X10 friendly UPSs?

Worthington sells them:
[Link: worthdist.com]

This message was edited by ONEAC on 09/06/04 07:47 ET.

oneac,

How old or under what conditions are these UPSs that have their batteries swell up so that you can't remove them? What brands? I have replaced many a UPS battery but have never seen this...wow!

The reason I said that "in many cases, it is easier to replace the entire unit rather than buy the replacement battery(ies) ($25ea.)" was due to the less time invested in locating the replacements (frequently out of stock) and changing the batteries (not complicated in APC, but it does take longer).

Randy

These units are APC's and for the most part 'abused'. That is a 1000 VA unit may have 2 servers & monitors and perhaps even a laser printer attached and in use for two plus years. The powers that be felt that if it has an outlet you could plug anything into it. (6 outlets 6 PCs, right?)

This message was edited by ONEAC on 09/06/04 07:47 ET.

Sure you can. every job I do I use Crestron and APC Smart-UPS units. There is a control macro that lets the Crestron shut down the AV gear before the battery time is up. I also use a UPS 5 times the size I need and I put everything on them including the power amps. This setup allows for proper shutdown everytime.

My two.

Studiocats1 is correct in that both AMX and Crestron can easily control the UPS units from many manufacturers. Bigger is better, but I generally am not a good enough salesman to sell much more than an 1500va unit so I could never meet his 5X size requirement....kudos to you!

To make up for my lack of sales skills and what I thought was a technical faux pas, I do not put the amplifier's on a UPS. I would like to know specific models that you have successfully used to power amps though for future use since I thought this would be a disaster. Could you post the ones you have had success with? Have you had any problems with powering an amp through them due to their sometimes huge thirst for current? What amps have you used with a UPS?

I am not being a smart ass or trying to set you up to blast you, these are sincere questions. If you prefer to respond privately to avoid others who might, feel free to email me directly. Thanks in advance!

Randy

Please do not respond privately. We want to know the answer to Randy's questions. We would like to put our high current amps on a UPS with success.

First of all UPS units are not designed to be running equipment on them in case of a blackout. They are designed to be monitored by a computer and provide proper shutdown to avoid data loss and equipment damage. I only use APC Smaart-UPS at least 3000VA. These are fed by a Surgex surge suppressor. I have a system right now that has two of these 3000VA units monitoring a system that includes an ADA 5 channel amp, a QSC Cinema series amp, Runco CRT projector, Runco SAR DVD system, 3 M&K powered subs, and a rack full of source gear including the Crestron processor. If my client is at full volume and the power goes out the Crestron quickly assesses the length of time on battery mode and when it reaches a low level it shuts down the system safely. Last year this house was struck by lightning during a very bad storm. The alarm system, AC units, and the other theater (I did not install that one) all were destroyed. The main theater was perfectly intact and shut down safely. When you have system this large 4K in UPS makes sense. In smaller systems when I can't sell them on the benefits of UPS I make them sign a disclaimer stating I informed them about UPS and they declined the purchase therefore my warranty takes on a whole different meaning. Usually when they see that they will buy the UPS to keep the warranty.

This series of UPS units are not sold at you local computer store so don't look for them there.

[Link: apc.com]