Well,

I have been reading through all this. I have a few things on it. I have been asked by box movers to creat programs that tehy can sell a dozen or so times. Well should I not be compensated for each time they sell it? I mean... if I design it...

Ohh well. That is why I didn't do the job for that company.

On the communication thing. I have always been able to explain things to customers once I establish a few things.
1. common ground. if you put things in term they are used to they tend to get it.
2. Don't assume they understood a word you just said. Frequently stop and ask... "That went kind of quick. Did that make any sence?" Then its on you and they won't feel as foolish when they ask you to carify things. I really don't mind personally. I get paid by the hour. If they want me to desing, build, install, test, teach, be a friggen therapist... it makes no differance to me.
3. When you are sure they are just head nodding. Make up SHIT! I meean reall werid stuff. Work in sentances like "when you want to... I f***d your wife... just press this button and the automation should take care of it.
4. Make up words if you get away with the above. SOMELFLANGE is my favorite. I am sure they are not paying attention then I am gonna cal something a Somelflange and they are gonna believe that it is callled that!

Needless to say. I am allowed to work in design, tech, programming, and even support. Starngely I am not in sales :)

Recently we got an internet tough guy. Well more to the point, his brother was. He broke down this bid to every single item on the sheet. Including what each tech should make including labor numbers. Saying that I was probably paid...$XX. What the heck is that. We put together bids that are what we think is firm and fair to get the job done to the specifications that we discuss with clients. If they want to break up the bid... shoot I say walk and take the bid with you unless you charged them for design time. Then it is their's otherwise... comanies intulletual property in my opinion.

Now as you may have guessed I am the youngest at my company and the smart ass of the crew. I am there to help clients... let me define a client. SOMEONE WHO PAYS FOR OUR SERVICES. Also def of a professional. Somone who is paid to complete a task.

Well we have our bid. Sales but it together with help from Desing and tech. I basically came in and filled in the blanks. Well the client desided he wanted a meeting with the president and "you most knowledgeable tech. Like the one who makes XX per hour." (The prick actually decided what my services must be worth without ever having met me... I am listening to the phone conversation and The customer thinks it would be a good idea for me to come in and "SPARE with my brother about some of the equipment choices and SQUARE OFF on selections and price."

Being a truelly obnoxious punk.

I show up for the meeting... you guessed it.

Long hooded cape. Medium white trunks. No shirt. Mouth Guard in. AN OF COURSE BOXING GLOVES ON!

Chanting with the mouth piece in, in the front yard of the house... "I AM THE GREATEST. I AM THE GREATEST! WHERES MY BEE_YOTH!" All this making those boxing gestures with the fast hands.

Its amazing I survive out here.

If you worked for me I would fire you for cause. You represent your company, and that does not do a good job of it regardless of the customer's manners or lack thereof toward you. I am amazed you survive out there.

For God's sake Theaterworks, he's joking. If he told you he made the client strip and run around the block naked would you believe him too :-)?

Yeah, maybe I should lighten up. On the other hand, thinking back on some of the people I've worked with in the past, anything along these lines is plausible. :-)

I can relate.

QQQ:
1. Would that the lord endowed me with the same gift of wit that he provided for you. To me he left only a big mouth.

2. On the substance of the claim that the software belongs to the client because there is little in it that is revolutionary I say how do you know? I like to use my published software as examples. Perhaps having an ASCII keyboard available for a device that requires searching for something is not revolutionary but if it is a feature that I can provide and an other comapny cannot might it not tip the scales for a client deciding on one company over an other. Every time I demonstaite that feature to a client he winds up hiring me. If that feature were available ( it is, but only because I decided to publish it ) to my competitors what differentiates them from me. QQQ is certainly the better salesman, or at least the more amusing one. If I have a technical advantage why should I have to place it in the public domain?

When I began writing SIMPL someone said that most programs could be written with 15 symbols. This might be true for a basic one room system. But just to display astronical time correctly on a touch panel requires Simpl+ ( also published because it is not big deal but that was my choice). If it were a stock ticker I was displaying or weather or time or code to interface to Windows Media Player should I not have the rights to it. The time it took me to reverse engineer the feedback from the ReplayTV has value and that was not in the published macro. I believe I am an honorable individual but I would not like to test my marriage vows if some super model lay naked on a bed with a come hither look on her face; or if someone happened to leave a spare 20 million lying on a table as I was trying to make a system work. Entrusting source code to someone who says they will not use it is letting the fox into the hen house.

Communication comes in my forms. I walked into a job we received recently to do just AV and found Lutron Homeworks and Shades and no communication between the two. Non plenum wire run to shades in a plenum ceiling. To make the client understand I carted in a full Crestron system with touch panels and equipment and made him understand why he might want to remove some Lutron keypads and use touch panels. No one from the Lutron side ( a company bid via the distributor ) took the time to bring up the subject of integration two products made by the same company. At the end of that job meeting the client approved everything, adding to the job cost but stated "none of this will alter the contractual price, right? " He did not care to understand anything save the amount he would be charged. Not atypical in my experience.

And Crestron macros are famous for working 90% If I fix the other 10 per cent does that not have value. The assumption is that everyone is using published software and just filling in signal names and parameters. What if this is not true for everyone? What if I am able to do more? What if I actually write macros or GUIs? Is that value transparent at the stage at which prices are negotiated-the beginning? No. Most clients have told me that they thought they were being ripped off until they saw the amount of work and custom programming that went into a job. I have a buddy who has developed his own wizzard only his works. He can program any job of any size and equipment layout in 20 minutes. Should this code be given to the client who if there was a falling out would hand it to the next contractor or the next? Give away your software if you like. In the commercial world it is often contractually stipulated which is why those interfaces and code are so pedestrian.

The crux of this thread was that Media Sysetms went under and many of their clients were screwed as a result. The solution is to place software in escrow but this costs money. The alternative is to minimize the intelectual property we create and give it away. I have argued that business realities cause us to give away far too much and this is one step I would not advise taking. Even if my software amounted to an Interlock, some or gates, buffers and a few steppers that code is mine. Afraid I might fall off a ladder or be electricuted trouble shooting a lighting system then pay for the insrance policy.
Why is that so damned frightening a concept. It seems very fair to me even if my code is so simple that I will need to ask forgiveness next Yom Kipor for taking money for it.

Alan

This message was edited by Audible Solutionns on 08/15/04 13:49.

Alan,

While I do understand why you need to take such a hard stance on this topic, the reality is that there are costs involved with any type of business. In this industry the costs are learning all the little timing issues, learning how devices react and respond, and yes even reverse engineering devices so that our clients can have a 40 ' screen pop out of a ceiling with a press of a button. but guess what, that is the cost of doing this type of business. Another problem is when dealers do go under, the whole industry gets the black eye, not just that dealer.

If you have a special Simpl+ macro that you feel is so special, great then tell the client that he can not have the source to that file give them only the hex, don't give them that module, but give them the source to the other files, so that if they decided not to come back to you they could add something to the system at a later date. Again they should know up front that you have not provided that piece of functionality and you have not provided the source file to them so that when or if another dealer was to re build the system, then they would not have your Simpl+ module, and they would either need to build it over or remove that part of the functionality.

I was not referring to the fact that you and others COULD make some very good software, and if you do you should, and could certainly hold the rights to this software. But let me point out again, most of all the Crestron systems out there, including those with modules built by Crestron ( or maybe especially ) , or any CAIP member for that matter are NOT SO GREAT that they need to be protected. Yea I know i know, this is a cry on deaf ears, and I am not talking about projects where you are required to do the massive R&D on the software. If this is your project then it sounds like you do inform them to the fact they will not have the source, that is great.

However the dam guys who don't give the source to the client for a home theater where all you have is 2 interlocks, and 9 buffers is just plain stupid. What do you think you are protecting? If I were to take over that job, not only would I NOT USE the poor and sloppy code, but I would start over anyway due to the fact that I would be able to write a new and better and more efficient program in half the time than it would take to fix or modify some crappy program.

Unfortunately these simple distributed audio and theater programs are what are being protected, and its just not right!
The code that gets us in trouble are usually involving source components, and we all know why; They change functions (maybe even channels) and new sources come out (or change) on a weekly basis. I would suggest that in these cases either use a separate smaller processor and give them the source, because we all know IT WILL CHANGE one day. Then on the other sub systems or other areas where the house may or may not change and you have a lot of time, give them the HEX for this area.


Alan, even if the code is simple (no pun intended) please give them the source. Do you really think this is the only reason why your clients come back to you??? I would argue that they come back to you because they TRUST and or feel comfortable with you and perhaps your system performed very well for them not because they could not find another dealer who could or could not do what you do for them.

Clients want the best price, this is true, but moreover they want security and professionalism and they demand value. This is why they want to use you for their jobs, not because you are the only one who could figure out how to keep a dam tuner on or providing a cool way to search for music.

I don't doubt you when you say other dealers do not offer the same cool functionality but I would also say that the other dealers in your area may be sub par. This situation for you may be fortunate, if this is really true however I would say that the dealers who do not know how to satisfy the clients needs and or desires would not be any challenge to your business even if they had your code.

But I understand that you will say then how do I show my differentiation? Don't use code as a crutch! You should be able to sell yourself and your company on more than smoke and mirrors, and much more than secrete code, as if no one else could possible write.

Another note if the client does not want to, and or does not have the budget to pay for your services then it has been my experience that may not be the right client for you all along as all they wanted was the lowest price and they did not care much for the innovations part such as the Lutron client you had mentioned.


Great thread, I really enjoy the frank discussions and dialog, if you agree or not I feel it is important to have a forum like this to be able to express hard felt feelings with others involved or not in this great industry.

Did anyone actually help the person who started this tread?

Yes, he was sent in the proper direction. But if you'd like to hire a private investigator to find who programmed his system, feel free and report back to us.

Just because someone decides to leave code behind doesn't mean it is the latest code in the processor. I can't tell you how many times I have ran into this. Most of the time they forget to leave IR files or modules that they created. This means I have to start over anyway. If someone asks for a quote from me for programming and says they want the final source code I charge accordingly and give them everything. If you don't want the code you save money. Its as simpl as that.:)

I'm new to this world (5 clients so far, started up last month) but have 15 years in the custom software, system integration business.

I'm sensitive to this issue however because I am trying to do a Tivo upgrade for a customer of mine that had the largest firm in town do their system 3 years ago. They won't return calls and won't hand over the code. Meanwhile I am facing a rewrite just to add two buttons to their tivo interface and change the way the TV is switched. The large firm hasn't gone away - just doesn't care about a $2K piece of work.

What I've seen out in the field of commercial software is much more generous towards clients than standard practice in the AV world.

Large software - Oracle, Peoplesoft, SAP
It's escrowed under Single Product, Multiple Beneficiaries. Many times the publisher pays. Costs run about $300-400/yr/customer. All the customizations in these packages are open to the client. Whether you've paid SAP or Accenture to customize the solution, the customer always has the right to change the customizations later.

Large custom projects
Customer owns all code. When I was with a Tier-one firm, I never heard of a project where we retained any rights to the code. Of course we started with design patterns but each project was unique.

Medium projects based on standard code
I was with another firm that did a large inventory management system for an agricultural firm - probably a $300K customization job on top of a $500K license. They got the source. It was expected that they would be able to modify the code after we left - of course they would never be able to upgrade but it was highly custom anyway.

Small projects - $5K - $30K
Access databases, etc. Unless they are shrinked wrapped software, I don't know any consultants in this market that don't deliver source. It's expected that the client might want revisions in the future and he isn't expected to be required to hire you.

Not giving source to clients is non-standard and not good for the client. If you have IP to protect, write and enforce a license agreement.

Meanwhile, I have no faith at all that AMX or Crestron could run an escrow service more efficiently than the big companies. I used DSI - now owned by Iron Mountain - and they do a ton of work for their $700/yr.

For someone who really does have a core set of code thay they use over and over again, spending the $700-$1000/yr would be a great marketing tool if you insist on keeping your code. At least you can say - it's in escrow and if I go bankrupt you can petition the trustee to release it to you.

-Aaron

Aaron,


Let me be the first to welcome you to the custom audio video control industry.
Thanks for your post, and good luck on your TIVO project.

Your assessment of the standard practices for AV firms is spot on, and I really appreciate your glimpse into the commercial software industry.

Iron Mountain looks like a great service, I will definitely be looking into their services!

Please let me know if I can be or any help to you or your aspiring new firm. Don't hesitate to ask any questions.

Best regards, and good luck!

I have been following this thread from the start. I don't install Crestron or AMX. But do have a few thoughts about our industry that have been mentioned several times in this thread.

We all must realize WE ARE NOT BROKERS OF MATERIAL AND LABOR! We are suppose to provide COMPLETE solutions to our customers problems/requests. Our bid is the cost to completely fill the clients needs and wants. Its not to merely supply 40 hours labor and $2,000 of hardware. For my customers that say, wow that xxx per hour I sinply state the above and explain that there is much more than just installing some hardware. For those whp want me to match interent pricing on hardware and bill $25 an hour I send them elseware.

I, too, welcome you to our industry. I have been very impressed with your posts eleswhere.

I think passing the expense of escowing software to the contrator is an undo burden. We are not getting the kinds of fees systems integration firms obtain in the industries you worked in and we often need to subsidize R&D and software through other revenue streams. We often have little or no control over the control protocols of the systems we must control so it would not be unusual if code that worked on last years models did not work in part or entirely in the current year. But I do agree that escrow is the solution.

However, your idea that it would be possible to enforce a contract is dubious. Only the largest companies might be able to afford a law suit. And there are no companies with the economic power of Orical or SAP in our industry. It would be a practical impossibility to enforce that contract. This software does not bring recurring revenue so you ability to finance the law suit comes out of retained earnings.

1. I agree that most code is pedestrian so retraining it only has the purpose of job security.

2. Enforcing IP rights is impossible. If DVDs can be obtained for $11 out of Asia 2 weeks following theatrical release and Hollywood, with its deep pockets, cannot stop it how can most integration firms with gross revenues of between 250-1 million fight this battle. How would you even know that your software was given to an other contactor? Think that I could not spot and disable any flags you may have placed in the code?

3.I do not think that Crestron or AMX need provide escrow accounts as there are existing companies providing this function.

I just think the end user ought to foot the bill.

4. To the individual who asked if the orginal poster had been helped please not that in one of my reponses I noted that the bank holding the server will for a fee provide of any software with his name on it.

5. The idea that the customer is your enemy is resonating more and more in my mind. If and until they are educated, Early Majority clients may very well be our enimies. The pool of early adaptor clients on which we have feasted has been serviced and no longer exists in aboundance. Early majority clients are often focused more on the bottom line than other concepts such as competance and service. They will demand more and more unpaid services. Again the is a very large difference between commercial jobs where other people's money is being spent and residential jobs where one's disposable income in being used.

And as more and more of our client's budgets are being taken up with expensive, low profit equipment like plasmas and LCDs it forces the end user with a limited budget to look for savings. If you have a job where 30k is taken up by displays that generate little profit there may not be room for the 15k control sysetm and appropriate programming and integration fees. It has been argued that no one forces you to take such jobs but if these are the majority of clients available than this may well be our future. You still need clients and not everyone will be able to attract those that QQQ has, either because they are not as skilled at sales, because they were not wise enough to get into the business at the right time or market the right way. Most of us are not true businessmen ( see the "E Myth." ) The future may well be one in which you get only 15 minutes with the client and all that is purused is the bottom line. You may not have the time to educate and your only tool will be the flashy GUI you bring in to demonstrait. Retaining intelectual property rights will be even more important as we move into this world and given the David/Golith ecomnic reality of the integration firm vs the client I believe the fair solution is to have the end user pay for escowing of the software.

My final words on this thread.

Alan




This message was edited by Audible Solutionns on 08/14/04 11:50.

I hope not. I enojoy reading your posts even if we don't always agree.