Was wondering how i could get the software for Crestron that was used for my house. Gonna need to make some changes but can't unless I have this (or pay boatloads to have it redone). Any ideas on what to do?!? Thought that the bank had it, but don't even know which one it is.

ALso, gonna be doing a Home Theater system and decided to prob go with Tweeter; I feel safer with them since they prob will not go out of business. Thanks.

chd19

You might also want to post in the Crestron Yahoo group as well.
[Link: groups.yahoo.com]

Also try calling around to some other custom dealers around town to see if one of the programmers joined on.

We have multiple copies of client files on different computers as backup, chances are the original programmer has a copy of yours.

Dave

Yes, definatly call around first, Maybe try crestron direct even, They may know who went where.



Very strange logic there...... Large companies go out of business all the time. Fretter, Highland, Silo, Incredible Universe, etc etc etc.... Why sacrifice quality for a "Prob will not go out of business"???????

They just may from the looks of their 'custom' installs. the few i have seen have been DEPLORABLE!

I do a fair amount of business in the Boston area and this is the forth job like this I have run across - and Boston is not my prime area of business. If you have a 2 generation processor the bin file can be extracted. This will not alter the fact that the entire program will need to be rewritten but at least you have a base line program to use while the job is being done. Using Tweeter for a home theater based upon my experience with them ( they supplied equipment for a job they were just not able to install and automate ) would be to take a poor situation and make it worse.

I feel your best bet is to go small. We go up against both Tweeter and Bose and their custom installation departments leave much to be desired. The advantages of a large firm is that there are always someone who can be at your job; not always someone you would want but a body to perform some work. There is also an economy of scale that permits them to provide equipment at lower costs than smaller firms. But a small custom installation firm should be small enough to survive the vicessitudes of the business cycle and if knowledeable professional enough to do fewer jobs the right way.

We wound up rewriting one job from scratch, and the others, were AMX installations where we could not obtain the AMX code so we added separagte Crestron processor to those areas we worked on and did not connect them to the rest of the house. I expect in the coming year to remove the AMX systems and turn those installs into Crestron systems.

Alan

This message was edited by Audible Solutionns on 08/08/04 23:40.

I'm sorry, but that's one of the iherent problems with a Crestron system. You are at the mercy of the programmer that set up ypur configuration. I'm not knocking the power and flexibility of the product. It's outstanding in that regard. What I am alluding to is the scenario this guy is facing now. Hopefully he can locate the tech that put it together, or at least get a disk without having to pay $$$ for it. I believe that when you spend the money on a Crestron system pay a programmer to interface it to your application. You should own a copy of the configuration so that for whatever reason, you can have someone else make changes in the future

I believe that when

I could not disagree with you more strenuously.
I grant a liscene to use my software not to own it. Why should an other contractor have access to code that took countless hours and in some cases years to amass? If one is leary of this sort of situation the code can be placed in third party escrow. This is an expensive insurance policy for a situation that is in fact quite rare.

Let me know how many conusmers have access to Microsoft source code? How about propritary business invintory and accounting software that often costs in the millions. The end user never has access to that code. I would never anything but the most standard code for a job where I did not control the software. Many commercial jobs have this in their specifications but it is a function of power how far this is taken. Most residential jobs can be rewritten quite quickly and easily. But if I have some piece of special code, say some way of using Micosoft Outlook that I developed it is not going to get into the hands of my competitors.

This sort of problem can happen whenever some firm goes out of business. How about Soundstream systems? How about Proceed? Audio Access ( surviving but for how long)? There is a very large company in my area who used to sell propritary multi room 12v relay sysetms. They no longer service them and leave it to others ( like myself ) to keep them going. And I do not have schematics. I need to reverse engineer the systems to service them or kludge work arounds.

The real solution is to use small owner/operator firms who have been in business for a while. This too has risks, as the owner could be hurt or die. I keep copies of all my files and in my will they can pass to my customers. They will not pass to them while I am alive.

This is one of the dirtiest little secrets in our industry and I personally consider it an obscenity. If the contractor that built my house goes out of business I don't suddenly have to pay to have the entire house re-designed from the ground up if I want to make a change to it. If my car dealer goes out of business I can still take it to another dealer to get it fixed. And to use a more appropriate analogy, if my IT consultant goes out of business, I don’t have to start from scratch if I want to add another PC to my network. It is true that the same thing can happen in some sectors of the software industry but that does NOT justify it.

The WORST thing is that every time this happens, it gives a HUGE black eye to our industry. That means you and me. And it costs all of us business BIG TIME. The guy that has to pay 5K or 10K or more to have his Crestron or AMX system re-programmed from scratch because he wants to add one component to his system will warn every friend he has about how he got burned buying on of those “high-end automation” systems. And the cycle continues…

In the mean time, most of the companies in the industry will continue to do business as usual, and keep sweeping this issue under the rug. After all, as long as the poor customer doesn’t know that he/she is f****d if they ever need another contractor other than the original one to service their system, they won’t know how to protect themselves. And in the mean time, we’ll all continue to twist the arm of companies like Crestron to keep things the way they are and allow the dirty little secret to continue.

I do see and relate to Alan’s points – and don’t want other dealers to get a hold of our proprietary programming either. But something MUST be done about this issue. It is causing incredible harm to the industry. I don’t have the perfect answer but we need to sit down and address this issue as an industry. Here are a couple of ideas off the top of my head:

1.Crestron and AMX should design their systems so that all source code is uploaded to the system. It can only be retrieved by Crestron or AMX through some official process. If a company goes under, the customer has some recourse.

2.There should be some type of standard form that Crestron and AMX etc. should require all of the dealers to have their customers sign. The form should explain the nature of sour code and the CLIENT should know up front if they are or are not getting the source code. No more of the BS where the customer is in the dark until the day they need to make a change to their system.

3. There could also be some completely independent 3rd party that holds source cold like an escrow. In the event of a company failure, the code is released.

These may not be perfect suggestions and I’m sure they’re full of holes - but we need to address this issue.

This message was edited by QQQ on 08/09/04 01:31.

I just noticed that Alan also suggested a 3rd party escrow.

Alan, I have one question for you. Do you inform and fully explain these issues to your customers? Because that's my biggest problem - we owe it to people to help them make an informed decision on this issue. Instead everyone seems to want to keep it a secret because we know that if people knew about it they might say "NO way".

There was another HUGE 100 million dollar commercial firm that recently went out of business - can't remember their name. Same thing happened - coutless customers screwed.

My feeling has been that the customer is paying us for the programming, then why shouldn't they have a copy. If you design something really trick, then the customer should have paid you more for that than if another programmer had done it.

If the dealers aren't out to screw the customer, then the customer isn't going to go to someone else unless they absolutly have to, ie lack of response.

If you feel that your program is worth more than the customer is paying for the use of the program, than he should at least have the option to pay you something extra for the code.

I guess what you need to ask yourself is;
"Do you really feel that the only reason a client continues to do business with you after the sale as their installer is because you have a lock on their program or because you did such a good job and they are pleased with your service?"

Third party escrow accounts are actually the solution to this problem but they are very expensive at the moment. This would solve all issues as if a company went out of business its code could be available for use by an other programmer. However, if there was some falling out between contractor and client that would become an other legal issue.

I tell all clients that the software for their system is not theirs but is similar to any other piece of sortware they believe they own. They have a right to use it but it is not theirs to do with what they want. I no of no other industry other than ours which challanges the notion of intellectual property. I have a buddy who writes popritary UNIX code for various garment manufacturers. These are very large and well know companies in an industry where most manufacturers irrespective of size are not well known. These accounting and invintory programs are essential to their business and cost millions to write and many hundreds of thousands of dollars per year to maintain. The source code is owned by the software company and not the end user. Moreover, these companies are often forced to purchase new versions for very high costs even if the developments costs are not high.

Speak with any software developer and you will find the current Crestron situation with respect to macros is untennable. That anyone can take apart my macro and see the source code is what prevents many from providing umc files to anyone else. Anyone ever run into educational facilities who hire firms to to one room and than try to reuse the code (with same equipemnt ) in 50 other locations on the campus. Ever wounder why it was necessary to write code so that it could only be used on the processor it was originally written for?

If I took the time to pay someone or to write my own code for a CD server or DVD player or Windows Media Player should that code be available to my competitors? I participate on a number of sites and provide and receive help. I post some macros but not all. Should not that be my right? The ability to write software is not merely an issue of code wirting abilty but also experience. Experience to know what to write not just how to write it. Many of us are GUI experts even if we lack the technical ablities to write or draw that code. Does that have a dollar value?

My preference would be for Crestron and AMX to provide the escrow sites. If one ceased to exist as a company or lost the liscence to become a dealer than Crestron or AMX would have the right to release that code.

Crestron dealers: Ever learn how the ability to drop hex codes into Windeal came about? If you do than you understand my trepidation about intelectual property. If you do not find me at CEDIA or dop me a line off line. We may need to discuss this on a telephone as some things are better not set down in writing.

The other issue is to what degree is the customer actually paying for the software? He is paying for a working system. Software is a part of this. Equipment and wiring an other. System design, CAD drawings, jopb meetings .... if all of these line were indeed payed for ( which I doubt is often the case than I might be more sympethetic. But we often must subsidize our costs and provide hidden discounts to get a job. And what of clients who stiff us. Perhaps the only karma here is that they may need to pay someone else for the work they did not pay you. Even if the number is 5k out of a 200k job it is still 5k that belongs to you.

From what I hear QQQ you do some very high end jobs. Care to share your vtp files? I sure would like to get hold of them as I hear they are something to behold. Might make it appar that I am as capable as you are even if I am not. We have enough quacks in this business without enabling them with free source code. This is a situation that just does not occur all that often. Hey, if you need to replace a Soundstream local amp or keypad can you? How about SONY DST systems? Is not this similar? I do not like charging to rewrite code. I am a very small firm and I am on every job. Some jobs take a long time and some clients or their wives can be, shall we say, difficult. If they had my source code it would make it that much easier to fire me if we have a heated disagreement. Perhaps only big mouths like me have had this problem but it seems prudent to protect yourself not only in terms of peyment structure but in terms of code as well. Boy I take up a lot of space. My apologies for the long, boring missive.

Alan

Based on my experience as an end user, a big problem is that most installation companies are design/build firms. I prefer a model in which one firm does the design and programming only, while another firm does the installation and sells the hardware.

This approach allows the design firm to design the system, document it, produce proper construction drawings and specifications, manage a hard bid of the job, supervise the construction, and write software (which is specified in the contract to be the property of the owner, not the design firm.)

If everything goes well then both the design firm and the installer will continue to service the system long after completion. If one or both firms turns out to be a problem, however, then the owner will have access to all necessary documentation if he ever wants to make a change. He will also have the ability to hold the installer to a written specification that was agreed upon at the time of the bid.

Alan,

Excellent post and I agree with much of what you said. One area of disagreement is that on most of the software systems you mention I think the client usually has some recourse to maintain and make changes to the system without starting from scratch and bringing in a new vendor. They also don't require the source code for example if they want to add a new SKU to their inventory!

I recently received a proposal from someone that insisted on being paid in full for their services before doing the job. I found this totally unacceptable. Why? Because all relationships should be win/win for both parties. If one party is in a position of absolute power then it is not a win/win relationship. Ever read a contract where you just shake your head? Where the contract is writen ONLY to protect the vendor or landlord etc. and basically tries to take away every right of the client or tenant? Same thing. A few years ago software companies tried to get a Draconian law passed that actually allowed them to turn off software via the Internet at a clients site if they were in a dispute. Same crap. I don't recall the specifics but it was extreme and luckily Congress ended up rejecting it.

In my contracts I try to build in protections for myself AND my client. Which I do not only out of the goodness of my heart but because I think it is in my best interest because it results in a happy client.

Anyhow, I'm obviously trying to draw a comparison to the situation at hand. I agree that the protection of intellectual property is of paramount importance. But I also believe that the client should be protected as well and that if we don't do so we are actually screwing ourselves long run. I want to see an attempt by the industry to address this issue (not that I'm expecting CEDIA God forbid to touch anything like this - unless they realize they could make some money off of it) so that we end of with protected clients AND our intellectual property protected. I don't want to see any more cases where a major company like Media Systems goes out of business and people are screwed. This was supposedly one of the shining starts of our industry. Why the hell did this happen? When they went under, why didn't they send out copies of programming to all of their customers?

One area where I strogly disagree is making AMX or Crestron the escrow. I want it to be a 3rd party. And I want to be able to craft my own legal agreement with the client, not the one AMX or Crestron decides on. And I don't want AMX or Crestron to screw me if I decide to sell another companies products. See, I can be a little paranoid too :-).

And your writing was NOT boring. It's a fun discussion actually.

This message was edited by QQQ on 08/09/04 13:48.

I don't want to get too much into the debate of design/build versus separate consultant and installation except to say that the vast majority of projects I have seen that have a consultant and a separate installation firm are of poor quality. There is in my opinion a niave veiw on the part of some that this is a superior process to design/build. It ISN'T. Both have their pros and cons. One is not superior to the other, though personally I have a strong preference for design/build because it allows me to control the quality of the project from beginning to end. But the VERY RARE good design firm can do the same - as long as they have someone on the project from beginning to end. Of course that almost never happens. The spec is written and then someone visits the job now and then.

This message was edited by QQQ on 08/11/04 23:30.