Mac, I'm just saying that is is. I run into cut throat crap all of the time out there... I'm just sayin'...

I won't stoop to their level(s) be it competitors or suppliers.

Mac Burks (39) - that's really your point, seriously??? -

"Fortress is un-ethical for cluing the other dealer in about any part of the discussion that took place between the OP and Fortress."

Did OP have any expectation that the conversation would be kept secret - did OP ask and not receive something that was expected - OP provided info that was not intended nor discussed to be kept secret. The fact that the various data points about the seating lined up to the vendor means that the vendor is actually paying attention. Who cares if the other dealer has been "clued in". Now we're talking about the 5% discount??

Your logic, if taken to the full extent, is that Fortress should have signed up OP, said nothing to the other dealer, and let OP take the sale no questions asked?

Or should Fortress have not signed up OP, said nothing to the other dealer, and then let things play out?

Or should Fortress have signed up OP, said nothing to the other dealer, and then dealt with competing sales for the same furniture which would be sold at the same price to the different dealers?

Fortress, regardless of whether you agree with their actions, tried to get out in front of the potential issue. Maybe they didn't succeed, maybe they should have done something different, but they did something and chose to ask a CURRENT dealer how to handle the situation. Sure, would have been great if current dealer said bring on the competition. That didn't happen and they lived by their decision to ask what current dealer wanted to do.

Hindsight - 20-20 - your opinion differs but that does not equal an ethical shortcoming. The company did something and stands by it; further admits what it did. What ethical boundary was crossed?

It does not matter whether Fortress assumed or did not assume that a quote/spec was taken from someone else. You assume that Fortress assumed that a quote/spec was taken from someone else. Fortress identified an issue and attempted to resolve it. Right on wrong, they didn't hide.

Jay

Nice to have some different perspective. It's too bad that you assumed that the sale was being stolen and didn't think for a second that the other integrator had a reason to try and get the sale as they are in the same exact business and have had the client for seven years. 

I'd be frustrated just as you, putting in the time to work out a quote with the ID only to somebody else competing for it. We've all been through the same thing. 

But when you called the ID and dropped your pants only a little bit at 5% it contradicts your testimony about not being a price whore. 

If the OP ordered the Exact Same quote, with countless variables to choose from and him not being a dealer, at what point would those of you who think this is fair play consider that stealing intellectual property? Doe's he have to have the actual quote in hand or ordering does all the product on it suffice? Would you need a picture of him with the quote in his hand, preferably on the phone with fortress placing the order?

Fortress has responded, the other dealer has responded and the OP's silence is speaking the loudest to me. We know that we're not getting the homeowner or ID on here, outside that this seems pretty cut and dry.

Ethics question-
Is stealing another companies quote more or less ethical than the manufacturer trying to guard its dealers intellectual property by letting the dealer know a new contact has attempted to order the Exact Same Quote?

 I still stand by my original post...Fortress did nothing wrong. Period. Endo of Story. You can scream it from the mountain tops if you want to, but the bottom line is they did nothing wrong.  

I'm sure Terrmul is a decent guy.  I'm sure the other company are decent guys. The person to blame here is the ID.  He/She circumvented Terrmul and deliberately (which is the opposite of accidentally) contacted a different home theater company, while He/She was in the process of working with Terrmul.

The Fortress dealer did exactly what he was supposed to do.  Put a proposal together for a prospective client per their request.  

Fortress did exacty what they were supposed to do.  Protect their dealer.

If you quoted 40k worth of product for a client, and mid way through the process you get a  call from prospective client stating that they only need your installation services because they became a "dealer" to save money.  

You'd literally shit your pants, never do business with that vendor again.  You might even contemplate not doing the installation.  

Fortress did exactly what they were supposed to do.  

1. Work with their existing dealer on a bid.
2. Contact existing dealer when they find out theirs a fox in the hen house.  

You can defend Terrmul all you want, as I stated, I'm sure he's a stand up guy.  But the bottom line is they don't know who he is, they don't know if he will follow through with the paperwork, and they don't know if he will get the job.  

Meanwhile, that exact customer and ID has been using the existing dealers showroom to sit their fat ass in some fortress chairs to see if they like them.

And if you don't want to do business with companies that ask their existing dealers if it's ok to add another than you'd better drop Control4 and a plethora of other companies.  Because the vast majority ask.  

So Fortress is the bad guy because they contacted an existing dealer to let him know that some guy off the street is about to snake his deal?  That simply doesn't compute in my brain.

Terrmul had a 7 year relationship with the client and a relationship with the ID, yet nobody thought to ask him if he sold seating before they talked with another AV company?  I call shenanigans.



 

I never attempted to make any point. I dont have a dog in this fight.


No the OP did not have any expectation that the conversation would be kept secret. He also had no expectation that a manufacturer would play gossip girl.

Like i said...it takes a lot of assuming on the part of the manufacturer.

I care about the other dealer being clued in. Let me rephrase...i only care about it because it backs my case about the manufacturer being unethical.

Whos talking about a 5% discount? The dealer i quoted and responded to? He brought that up not me. I just thought it was funny. 5% is okay but 10% is pants dropping lol. Hilarious. You either discounted or you didn't. I don really care but dont play by-the-book MSRP guy if you discounted...even if its 5%.


My logic is that Fortress should have signed him up as a dealer or not.

What they shouldn't have done is gotten involved the way they did.


How would things have played out if Fortress just denied the OP dealership?

A.The Fortress dealer gets the sale as planned.
B.OP steers them towards a different product.

If A occurs then Fortress is happy their dealer is happy etc.

If B occurs then maybe Fortress and their dealer didn't really have this sale in the first place.


Why should Fortress care where a sale came from? If they have a real/fair/working policy for signing up dealers then they would never sign 2 guys up in the same area.

If they did choose to sign up two dealers in the same area then they should expect discounting (more than 5% in some cases...close to pants down status).


They got out in front of it and i can respect that want to nip potentially unethical behavior in the bud. But they screwed the pooch and made very poor decisions imo.

Again i wonder why a manufacturer would ask an existing dealer how to choose new dealers. I just can't believe that conversation took place. Its just not logical. I would wager the conversation was more like "hey we have this new dealer trying to sign up and hes asking about the exact same thing you were asking about...sounds fishy".



My opinion is my opinion. Your opinion doesn't mean that it wasn't unethical.

I pointed out the ethical boundary above. Its the part where Fortress contacted an existing dealer and IMO conspired to keep the new guy out.


Fortress could not have identified an issue without further investigation. They made an assumption and acted on it. I think it was an unethical action. You dont.

Them not hiding about it isn't relevant. Plenty of unethical people are proud of their transgressions.

Thats my point... IF the OP ordered the Exact Same quote...

Half of you guys were already assuming a long with them until cmont posted. And when cmont posted he didn't really specifically state whether or not he had any evidence other than a manufacturer saying "exact same quote". Actually (pointed out by me) his post is a little unclear.


Yeah his silence lol. Its the weekend. Some people have lives unlike us.


Is smashing a fly with your fist more of a murder than shooting your wife?

Both actions were unethical. The difference is that the Manufacturer made an assumption about the OPs unethical behavior and then acted unethically. At that point the only one being unethical is the manufacturer. It would be like you thinking your wife is cheating and then telling all of your friends shes a cheater. From the "evidence" posted here its pretty obvious that the interior designer was the one behaving unethically or foolishly or whatever we want to label their douchebaggery.

Thats why it makes more sense to A.Say nothing or B.Investigate further. Fortress did neither. They called the other dealer and shared information that they shouldn't have.

No. According to the OP, he originally said that they sell theater chairs.
But in a later post, he said that they have no vendor for theater chairs.

I am more questioning the OP's ethics for taking another CI's quote and trying to steal the sale even though he isn't even a dealer for ANY seating.

"Just sayin" is the wrong attitude. Its like the world is a shitty place and we just have to deal with it. The reality is the world is just fine...we just have a "shitty people" problem.

Shitty people hide money offshore. They send poor boys to war for resources. They break into your car for stereos. They show up at the restaurant with no money and expect others to pay their way...you get the idea.

They are the one stooping...let them stoop.

Not the bad guy. They just made a bad decision. They could have easily just denied the OP dealership.


No quote from the competitor. Just instructions from an interior designer. Designers spec things all the time. They have access to the internet. They work on other theaters with other clients. Lots of legitimate reasons for them to have information about specific products.


When i read this i thought "hes assuming the tipped off the competitor" and doesn't really know. But by the time i got back to the thread it was confirmed by the manufacturer.

The existing Fortress dealer just took a phone call and demo'd product and did their best. The OP was asked about quoting theater seating and was given a spec that he tried to meet. The manufacturer really only made the one mistake IMO. The real problem here was with the interior designer kicking tires and shopping price.

What just occurred to me is that the ID got exactly what he/she wanted. A lower price. Looks like it worked. In the mean time everyone else involved is feeling butthurt.

The OP originally stated that they COULD provide them. Not that they did sell theater chairs.


Literally meaning he could contact a seating manufacturer and become a dealer because he is a CI.


Thats probably because he had no vendors for theater chairs.



This never happened. An interior designer allegedly passed one guys quote to another. I only say allegedly because im still unclear if the OP had a copy of a real proposal or if it was a verbal spec from an ID etc. Whatever the case may be the OP did nothing wrong according to the information posted by those in the know regarding this issue.

Those in the know being Fortress cmont and the OP.

 The real problem here was with the interior designer kicking tires and shopping price.
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Yesssir.  But he/she seems to be escaping any of the blame.  When in reality, 100% of this problem sits directly on his/hers shoulders.  

BTW, since I have to be politically correct and say guy/gal or he/she...Ihop the ID is actually a "He She"..  That would be awesome.

The ID literally "shopped" Terrmul, but instead of the Thread being named...This A$$Ho ID just shopped me, we get this fiasco.  



 

 This thread isn't going anywhere. Only one way to resolve it.

I call Thunderdome. 

2 ci's and 1 id enter. no one leaves.

Both CI's go out of business sitting at that meeting while the ID bills the client @ $500 an hour...