Where do I go to talk to these out-of-touch engineers who design products that are so hard to use?

I just installed a 60" Zenith plasma. Think about it -- THAT product will go in a home with money, right? So they might want to have some kind of programmed remote, right?

Well, Power is not a discrete command. Worse yet, the video inputs are not only not discretes, but you have to wait at least two seconds after pushing INPUT before you can push it again to move on to the next one.

What does that mean? This big, beautiful display is automatically disqualified from being in any but the simplest systems, or systems where gearheads don't mind pushing buttons and waiting (remember AOL and the original PC?).

Where do I go to talk to these out-of-touch engineers who design products that are so hard to use?

You can't... they're well-shielded from the outside world, which contributes to this problem.

The best we can do is bombard them with tech calls for discretes, and have a long talk with their booth attendants at the trade shows. Make sure they're aware of our disapproval.

Another situation where a CEDIA product certification program would have helped.

Doug @ HomeWorks

Ernie,

Youve got mail.

What Model? I have discretes for several Zenith 60" Plasma displays. Only ones I know that did not have discretes were the original batch.... Which was fixed with a Chip upgrade (about a year and ahalf ago)

So unless this TV has been in stock for that long, the discrets are probobly out there.

And I totally appreciate it.

That solves one part of the problem, but still there is another -- the client is not sure he wants to go with a new-fangled remote if the thing is such a pain to use right out of the box.

He likened it to Kahlil Gibran's essay "The Silver-Plated Turd," in which Gibran points out by metaphor that you can silver-plate it, but that is still what it is. You and I know that a Pronto would totally solve my client's problem now that I have discrete codes, but Zenith has created a problem for me and my client by not making the remote with discrete codes to start with.

We are only using the DVI and Component inputs, so this will not actually make him want to send me away, but it WILL be irritating every time he chooses to change inputs.

Zenith could have also made this better by allowing inputs to be turned off, a la Sony or by making the switching response faster.

As you've found, The Engineering was fine.........


Other than runco, I know of no other manufactuer that has ALL the available discretes on their remote that comes with the TV. If this TV is going into such a home with "Money" as you say, why would a pronto not be part of the equation?

> If this TV is going into such a home with "Money" as
> you say, why would a pronto not be part of the
> equation?

becuase there's Crestron, AMX, Niles, Home Theater Master, etc.

Sharp plasmas are the same- no discretes for inputs, and it takes a couple of seconds for it to switch inputs. That's totally unacceptable for a unit that costs more than $7000

I guess I should of said at least a pronto or something to that effect........

The same discrete codes that work on a Pronto will work on all the remotes you mentions... ANy any learning remore for that matter as long as you have a Pronto like device to be teacher.

As for the sharp plasmas.........
Sharp dropped the Ball on IR, but RS232 does provide reliable input switching.... But then I have to go back to IR to turn the unit on once I turn it off with RS232............

You'll have to brush up on your Korean. When Zenith bankrupted, Goldstar bought them. Oops, I meant to say LG. Goldstar is a dirty word.

Optoma also puts the discretes on the remote but you have to use special key combinations, mitsubishi does this as well.

Ernie,

I'm totally lost at this point. At first you were complaining that there were no discretes a RANT I can TOTALLY agree with. Now you've got the discretes. Well, for *practical* purposes the ONLY reason for a product to have discretes is so you can program them into a good control system (Crestron/AMX) OR a good learning remote control (Pronto/Home Theater Master etc.). Otherwise they are worthless because the remotes that come with most equipment are worthless. So what's the issue here?

Sounds like the only one you have to be mad at now is yourself for not inlcuding a decent remote with the system.

Never installed an Optoma.... But Mits Plasmas do not have discrete input selection for ALL inputs on the factory remotes... Not the Consumer level ones I sell anyway..... Rear Pro do.... If you are using RGBHV and DVD-Component, those 2 inputs toggle. And I have yet to find a reliable way around it.

Q,
discretes should be part of the original remote. Even when Toshiba totally blew it on their first bigscreen "ColorSream" sets, the second generation allowed a factory remote macro of
input
#
to switch directly to a particular input.

avgenius emailed the discretes to me, and that is wonderful, but this process requires me to install the system, DISAPPOINT THE CUSTOMER, tell them, gosh, gee, I bet I can fix that for a thou or more....

That is what is left of my original rant. These damn sets should come with discretes in the factory remotes, or a technical addendum in the manual showing key combinations that will produce them, or something that keeps us from having to look like idiots the first time out. And no, I am NOT going to play with a 60" at home before I drive 475 miles to install it! I rather like the integrity of the original packing and want to keep it that way.

Ernie.......
I've always felt that you were one of the more competent techs here on remote central.

This thread has me scratching my head in disbelief.

you sold somebody a 15,000 plasma TV and system without a capable remote control.

You sold this set sight unseen evidentally. and did not know the capabilities and quirks.

Then you mention that the jobis 475 miles away which bring up more questions.....

You said you dont like to compromise the integrity of the packaging...... Wouldnt you want to inspect the TV before transporting it 475 miles? Would it not be more embarassing to show up at the clients door with a busted TV that you didnt take the time to check?

ANd then you want a tech bulletin with complex key presses to produce disrete codes..... What good does that do when you dont have a remote in the job capable of learning those codes?
You see Mr. Customer, its quite simple, when you want to watch a DVD, all you need to do is hold down the Power key while you hit F2, then press the number digit "1".

I do a lot of out of town work, and the ne thing that I do is make sure I know every piece of gear going into these jobs inside and out. I dont like surprises 500 miles from home. and I certainly dont like service calls that could of been prevented 500 miles away.

It sounds like the ball really got dropped on this project and your looking for someone to blame. I've been in this industry a real long time, and I certainly have made my fair share of mistakes, but instead of blaming the manufacturer, salesman, distributor, or whomever else I could think of, I fixed it best I could, learned something, and moved on.

The moral of the story is this.

You sold a budget 60" plasma. Do you think Zenith could sell this set for $10,000 less than the next guy and still have every feature the $25,000 sets have? (The difference is less now... But when they first shipped this was the spread.)

It should be someones responsibility to know the products that are being sold.

Is this a Rant? Maybe... Flame? I hope you dont take it that way, because you've had some great ideas and input here, and I do respect your opinions and advice.

I'm afraid I agree with Impaqt above Ernie (the flattery as well as the bad). And I still don't have a clue what your point is. What good would it do to have some combination of button presses or whatever to access discretes on the Zenith remote? If that's how you intend to tech the customer how to operate his system there is no point in even having discretes! The ONLY reason to have discretes is so you can program them into macro sequences! Otherwise they are no better than toggles! And why in the world are you selling a 15K TV without a good universal remote?