I don't want to start a thread on who's better, I just want to know the decisions that were made when you decided to carry one or the other (initial cost, dealing with company and/or reps, programming, etc.).
Crestron seems to have everything from soup to nuts, while AMX tends to partner with other people. I am very interested in people's thoughts on programming. Which is easier/harder/flexible/limited? Do you find it easier to sell one vs. the other? Thanks in advance for any replies....

Both systems are good...
They both require training to program.
If you are looking for an all in one solution then Crestron may be the way to look.
But
If you have clients that may want just a little lighting control, or other things without the full automation package, going the AMX route and becomming a dealer for the other things may give you more choices and solutions for your clients.

Maybe Lutron/Vantage etc have too many dealers in your area and are not looking to open up any more, Crestron gets you into lighting control.

Maybe there are too many Crestron dealers in your area, then AMX might be your best bet.

These are things only you can answer.

Being a dealer of either one means that at one point every couple of years you will be cheering because you now have the latest "whatever" before the other guys. Then 6 months to a year later your going damn, the other company has the best "whatever". Either way, both systems are there to control things and they both do well.

It's the old Ferrari, Lamborgini decision. Flip a coin and report back to us in 6 months.

Go AMX - Crestron is a little behind the times...and don't bother learning how to program, sub that out - it'll save a lot of money and let you move on to the next thing.

Bad advice on both counts, ESPECIALLY the second (whether you do or don't sub programming out you should absolutely learn how to do programming).

How is crestron on par with AMX? And, btw...the more you know the more you have to do. If you are able to sub out programming to someone who does it on a daily basis your end result will be better, it will cost you less, call backs due to bugs in programming will be able to be handled by the programmer and your time can be better spent arranging the next job, project, design or deal...whatever else needs to be done.

I would recommend sending your best tech(s) to the programming courses, right after a long talk to ensure his future with you and has signed a non-compete contract backing up that conversation.

Either way you go, I would recommend finding an independant programmer to work with you on the first job for sure, and maybe for the long term as well. You want your guys to at least be familiar enough with programming to be able to implement minor changes down the road, like changing out command for upgraded equipment, modifying lighting scenes, etc. without waiting for your sub who may be on a 2 month gig in another state.

Be aware that tons of otherwise solid businesses have gone belly up trying to make automation work in mega jobs. Mostly due to out-of-control unbillable programming costs that have spiralled well beyond your initial expectations and can easily surpass the number on you quoted by tens of thousands of dollars and beyond.
Both companies products, and the third party components for the common sub-systems, are significantly more predictable than even five years ago, but it's still something to consider.

As far as which line, I agree with Sir Round Sound, but would add that if you already have strong relationships with vendors who offer proven RS-232 control (ADA, Lexicon, Auto Patch, AudioAccess, Lutron HWI, Vantage, etc.) it might make sense to consider AMX strictly for control and maintain vendor relationships that you have built, and stay with what you know.

If you aren't aligned with these many of these types of product lines and see value in using Crestron's A/V processors, multi-zone controllers, lighting control systems, etc. to have a consistent brand story to tell, then that might be the way to go.

It might be a good idea to contact your regional contact for each company and set up CEDIA appointments to see both lines thourougly.

Ultimately, you will get a blank pallette to work with either way and the finished result is definitely more dependent on system design skills and programming talent then the systems themselves.

Agreed. If you have the capacity, learn to program. It produces the most lucrative billable hours, and you don't have to count on anyone else.

We initially chose Crestron because they're located 10 miles away. If we get a bad piece, we can replace it that day.

Doug @ HomeWorks

I seem to recall that no more than a couple of months ago you were posting asking which of the two systems you should sell. For someone that has very little experience with either company, you sure have established an opinion fast.

I prefer Crestron, but the key word is *prefer*. I know enough to know that the REAL difference is the integrator, NOT whether they are using Crestron or AMX.

Illogical argument. One could argue the same thing about wiring – “sub it out to an electrician who does it on a daily basis”. One could argue the same thing about installing the components. Based on your reasoning one could argue that the best thing to do is just sell components and sub everything else out. And indeed there is nothing wrong with subbing out work, *but you better have an excellent knowledge of how that work should be done*.

Knowing what I know if I was a customer and heard you say “don't bother learning how to program, sub that out” I’d wouldn’t consider you for any project that required any level of integration. And I can guarantee you that if you are doing anything more than the most basic systems your customers are going to be waiting a long time to have basic issues solved if you don’t have a person on staff that can program. I’d love to hear you explain to your customer how their lighting system is going to be down for two weeks because you can’t figure out why it’s not working because your subcontractor programmer is out of town for two weeks.

This message was edited by QQQ on 07/18/04 20:11.

I'm just trying to extract some reasons for why people use one over another. All arguments seem to be preference so far. That's not what I am trying to evoke from you all...I guess what I really want to know is why do you all use one over another - what in your opinion makes one better than another and for what reasons?

In regards to the other thing...I still feel that our time is better spent, being that we are a small company with lots of projects, continuing the workflow rather than spending considerable time programming. Developing a solid relationship with an independent programmer, I think, is better than paying to have a high paid programmer on staff full time.

BTW - if you ever have a system where your automation hardware is the single point of failure for your lighting system, or any other system that it controls - you've made a huge mistake. The automation is supposed to control other systems, not be the system. If you have a room with no light switch or control, just a touch panel, then you are doing our industry and your customer a huge dis-service.

JBJ,

You ask some good questions and make some good points. If I have time, I'll address them. For now:

1. I'm simply suggesting you should have someone on staff that can program. That does not preclude subcontracting programming out but you should never be completely dependent on an outside programmer.

2. You are correct, you should never have a single point of failure. That doesn't negate the point I made earlier and I think just about every person who has a lot of experience with these types of systems will back me up on this. I've seen lighting systems from the major manufacturers go down. And yes, you can encounter problems EVEN if you go the "light switch in each room route", because you can sometimes have a device on the network go down and pollute the network. In those instance, it's critical you have someone on staff that knows how to hook up a PC to the system and get rocking.

1) Totally true...I don't think we are in disagreement about that. I just don't want it to be something that consumes all of my time. I would prefer to do other things. We will all be learning some programming and by default I'm sure I'll pick it up out of curiosity to play around with the systems. 2) I have also seen lighting system go to #$^% but I've had only 1 experience with total lighting system failure, but I've heard many more horror stories of malfunctioning automation.

I started this thread a while back. A reply said to post back with the direction we chose. We went the Crestron route b/c of market conditions in our city. Both are great products and I find advantages with each. Question for Crestron programmers: I'm going to the programming class next week, any opinions from people that have taken it? Thanks in advance...

Like drinking from a firehose. Bring lots of caffine. :-)

The first class is not so bad especially if you are taking it in N.J. Its a good time to ask troubleshooting questions and maybe meet tech support.
They will jump through hoops to answer any question you have. As far as the programming, AMX or Crestron.
I would have to say Crestron is easier if you are just using Simpl, but Simpl+ and netlinx are basically the same. On the other hand you can get most if not all of what you need out of Simpl.