As I was programming an old Marantz RC5000 this week, I was painfully reminded of what a problem discrete codes (or lack thereof) still is.

This has been our industry's #1 peeve with manufacturers in general for years, and I'm mystified that it still is. We bring it up at every trade show, every training class, every seminar, and in nearly every other post here. And yet we still have products seemingly designed "for home theater" with toggles for everything, not to mention standard consumer products that have never had them and probably never will.

Every new plasma, LCD panel & projector is a potential crapshoot when dealing with IR. And small companies like mine simply don't have the budget or the clout to bring in a demo for testing every time. Yet we can't sell it if we don't know for sure.

Do the manufacturers care about us so little that they continually ignore this request? Is adding discretes really that big of an engineering problem?

To all companies who have heeded our requests, I thank you, as our numbers reflect. This post is not aimed at you.

I'd love to know everyone's take on this.

- Doug

I have always wondered why there are such huge differences in IR codes in the first place. All the different frequencies, toggle bits, and such. It would seem that you could designate say, 100 common commands that could be used universally, have the same carrier frequency, and have unique prefixes and suffixes to differentiate one brand from another. Such a plan would increase the reliability of learning remotes and IR repeating devices. I too agree that the lack of discreet commands for power and input selection is disturbing. I find it a big PITA that components such as CD players that don't have a power command, so that when power is applied the disc starts playing. You would think that the industry could have a working group to establish standards for such things intsead of letting things go unchecked.

I put the onus on CEDIA. They could have solved this years ago by publishing a standard and making an industry wide push.

I guess my response to this thread is

Why are you still supporting products/Manufacturers that do NOT support Discrete codes?

If they havent come around on this issue yet, chances are they dont care. In my shop, I can count on one hand the number of products that do not support discretes... A Couple DVD/VCR Combos, A Couple 13-20 Inch TV's and thats about it.

I suppost you could count CD players with manual power switches in with those... But whatst he difference between sending a STOP comand in your On Macros VS. a Power on? Just plug it into the Receivers Switched outlet..... Or Leave it on.....

There are ways around any non-discrete issue if its really a problem. This is why we are "Experts" and "Professionals".........

Fact is, there are enough products out there WITH discretes. Use them.

What products are you still using that dont support discretes??? And Why?

Impaqt:

What Tivo units would you use that have discretes, for example. And why should we have to tailor our entire lineups around this one idiotic issue. Why should we have to wonder every time a new model comes out if it has discretes, or if the manufacturer once again decided to change midstream and the discretes that worked on the older models no longer work on the new model.

We do EVERYTHING possible to use ONLY components that can be properly controlled and it's still a constant pain in the ass/challenge. It should not have to be.

Yes, we should reward manufacturers that have gotten the message. But we need everyone to get it.

Amen to that. I just got off the phone with a Samsung dealer who is struggling to find a Samsung DLP that fits the customer's cabinet and has discretes. Funny that Samsung is enjoying such a run of popularity right now but does not have discretes.

It can boil down to you vs. the Big Manufacturer. "They make such a great tv (and I got such a great deal on it), why can't you make it work?"

All of the new Samsung DLP sets currently shipping DO have discretes for power and for input. While it is not on the OEM remote. They are there. As a matter of fact. Samsung offered an upgrade to the old DLP sets and one of the features upgraded was to get discrete codes. On this issue, Samsung DID listen to the installers/industry and did add the discrete codes. Hopefully the discrete implementation will trickle down into the entire line.

Jason

There's a flip side to this though. I've had troubles using a Phillips TV along with a Marantz receiver because BOTH of them used the same volume up down codes. Not good if you want to leave the TV muted and listen through the A/V receiver.

WHy would you need to turn off a TiVo? I have dozens of Tivos in systems... Sony, and Philips units...... I never have issues with them, and I never turn them off.

I agree with the issue here, however in addition to discretes, we should also support those companies willing to include 1/8" ir jacks on the rear panel. This obviously elimantes emitter failure, or the labor to bury them. I don't consider rear jacks requiring carrier stripping acceptable. While work a rounds are fun and self-satisfying, discretes would facilitate template programming. I can't think of any reason to turn a tivo off, but mother nature must because after a power outage the on command would be nice for tivo units that don't return to last state.

Oh come on now - now you're arguing just to argue! In the last post you were asking why anyone even uses products without discretes. Now you're asking why we need them and don't just leave the equipment on all the time.

We want discretes on a TIVO for the same reason we want them on everything. So we can design foolproof systems. So if somehow the unit gets turned off, the next time the customer presses the "TIVO source" button on the touchscreen or remote, the TIVO turns on.

Well, there's always going to be some arguing over little stuff.

It's true, you can use any # of products to compensate for lack of discretes: video, audio, power & light sensors, etc... which usually end up costing more than the discrete-less product. I refer to these items as the "pound of cure", as discretes would prevent them from being necessary.

And yes, there are a lot of products that can just stay on... because they have to for the system to work. Has there EVER been a cable box with discretes for power?

We do support manufacturers who implement discretes, problem is, there are too many who are on the fence: some stuff does, some doesn't. Last generation did, this one doesn't. It's a full time job to keep track.

CEDIA should become a standard for gear, just like THX did. That way, we'd know which products would work before ordering.

My wish list for that certification would include:

Discrete IR codes for power & input
A jack for direct IR from a repeater block
Power on with input select
OSD on ALL monitor outs
Submission of full IR codeset & RS-232 protocols to a central database

Funny, once they do any of these, they'll expect us to thank them. But like Chris Rock said, "You don't get credit for sh*t you're SUPPOSED to do".

- Doug

Not to argue more, but every TiVo I've used can only be turned off in the menu. Unless they purposely go into the menu and turn it off it should never turn off. Even in a power failure, when the power comes back on the TiVo is in an on state.

Then I used a bad example. I was under the impression there was a way to kill the on-screen display (image) on some of the various branded Tivo machines.

I would still argue in favor of discrete on/off if only to allow a reboot - assuming of course the on/off worked on a crashed/locked machine.

And yes, there are a lot of products that can just stay on... because they have to for the system to work. Has there EVER been a cable box with discretes for power?


Yes there has, Scientific Atlanta, Ch+ or Ch- turned on, the only power button was an off button. Back in the day we would use it to flip relays discretly