I agree! also i dont know why plasma manufacturers who supply seperate tuner boxes dont build in a IR distrubition into them ,the sensor is on the front of the plasma any way. it cant be that difficult to have emitter sockets on the back of the tuner to control other items hidden in a cupboard.

deb hit a nail on the head with the wish list - POWER ON WITH INPUT SELECT. A pet peeve of mine is the Sony or Mits big screen that won't accept a command for 7-12 seconds after power up. Using a Pronto means the client has to hold his remote in the "aim" position for 20 seconds sometimes. It can result in erratic macros if he loses concentration before the macro has fully executed. If the TV powered up with the input select, then the macro would be half as long (timewise) or less.
Most receivers I've set up take no more than 5 seconds to take the next command - not bad, but power up with input command would be a great improvement everywhere.

well Tom, there's a work-around for that... make TV-ON the first command in your macro, then tv-input the last...

And if you use a RF remote, it doesn't matter where the thing is pointed- the gear will get the signal :)

Ahl, what Tom was trying to say is some TVs meed about 2-5 seconds after the "On" command before they will accept any other commands.

I was somewhat surprised to find that the Sony GWII has absolutely no IR dead time - even though it can take 20 seconds before you can see anything, it's responsive to IR codes instantly.

I think part of the problem is who you talk to. I have never been to CEDIA but I would guess the people there are just representatives (sales people), and it is not the engineers or anyone in the company (like a division leader or CEO) that can make those choices and say all our TVs will now have discrete codes.



I don't think so, the IR chip is there, so it is really just some FW (programming). That is what is most frustrating.

Bruce: I don't think that would work. Like rdenatale that you would either need a real strong management of that DB (code range per device/manufacturer) or you can get into a nasty situation. Also it would not fix the real problem that is discrete codes.

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the only good thing is that there seems to be companies that are starting to understand our please and act on them. So at least it is moving in the right direction

Sony has been one of the better companies, although their inclusion of discretes predates the custom boom of the 90s, so I'm pretty sure we weren't their motivation. And whether intentional or not, I saw the removal of discrete power codes from the SAT-A4 as a big middle finger looking right at us. That plus the exclusion of the dreadfully-important output format discretes from the SAT-HD100.

Ahl,
I always put the TV power on first. The most recent set up included a 5 year old Mits big screen that paused 10 seconds before taking an input command. I can't put enough commands in to take up ten seconds, so I had a 7 second delay in the midst of things.

A Sony widescreen just before this one took around 6 seconds or so to take an input command.

There isn't much consistency so you have to waste time and experiment a bit getting the delays right, all the while hoping the string won't be so long the client nods off and drops the remote...

I agree with some of you about CEDIA. Although CEDIA has been responsible for some major improvements in our industry, I would like to see them become more active in influencing or "informing" the manufacturers about our needs. Discreet codes should be the norm on equipment and you shouldn't have to get a Pronto or get on the internet to find them.

Another pet-peave: Manufacturer's should decide on whether to make the surround receiver the switching hub or the TV. Most televisions block you out of looping the integral tuner through a surround receiver. How are you suppose to use the on-screen graphics to adjust surround parameters while in the TV tuner mode. I would like to see the TV tuner and PIP built-in to the surround receiver. I know it sounds crazy, but think of the problems it would solve.

I'm sure all of us installers see things that customers, manufacturers, and installers could greatly benefit from. Since most engineers probably feel that they are too important to read this forum, maybe CEDIA could communicate our ideas to them. I do think, however, that it will take some force feeding for manufacturers to listen to us. Who better than CEDIA to represent us. I just hope that someone high enough in the CEDIA hierarchy has time to read this forum, and will take some action to create a task force.

Maybe we should start a thread that is just a list of recommended components that are capable of Discreet IR commands. I know some of you are unwilling to share your product line info with the group, but if we all can list some of the basic components like a great plasma or projector etc.. we would all be better off.

I know I am picking up Sherwood Newcastle due to it supposedly being a discreet friendly IR path. Also I have Sherbourn, it is all discreet, but the line is still a little thin.

I think part of the problem is that discretes tend to be an unreported feature (not on spec sheets) and so can be added or removed on a whim. So just because someone added them to one model it does not mean that they will be there in a different model or firmware. And since models keep changing relatively fast (for some around once a year) it almost becomes useless (i.e. by the time the list is made the info is out of date)

I know that somewhere in my notes I have a list of products that support discretes. It was provided by Eric Johnson at a CEDIA class. With any luck I will find it shortly, and share.

To get back to the original question.

I believe the answer is that the perceived demand is still small so the average manufacturer is unaware of the issue OR is aware of it but doesn't thinks it's enough of an issue to affect sales.

BTW, I recently contacted a large company regarding discretes on their products and after reaching two top level engineers, discovered that they had NO idea there was any demand for discretes. This was a company that has had displays at CEDIA expo. They had the discretes on the products for internal use only and sent them to me when they realized they would be useful to me.

And to get back to the point in my original post, because the demand for discretes is not perceived as huge yet, and it often takes the market several years to react to "demand", we need CEDIA or PARA to promote the issue.

A group of companies did write a control spec a few years back, and from the little I read of it, it was excellent. But it went no where (another case where support from CEDIA could have made the difference IMO).

Almost twenty years ago, at CES, the major manufacturers agreed to fund an industry standard for remote controls. For years, each of the majors sent engineers to costly meetings around the world. At last, the standard was unveiled. The engineers not only agreed on a standard for IR, but for RF and powerline as well. Not only CEDIA, but the CEA endorsed it with lots of money and tradeshow space (paid for by the big major manufacturers!).

That standard was trumpeted for a few years, but because no one product had it and became a home run because of it, the same manufacturers who paid for the standard to be developed, never implemented it on any product. The standard was/is called CEBUS.

So, while CEDIA could do more to promote automation friendly equipment, the market still rules. Manufacturers are copy cats. When one succeeds, others follow.

Don't buy products you can't automate!

Best Regards,

-Eric

Eric Johnson
www.hometheaterpro.com

Phone 1-800-247-7001

On 10/10/03 07:56, deb1919 said...