A six figure job doesn't equate to $50k in programming.
Hell I did a job at FEMA and MARFOCOM where they spent
in the low six figures on their av system including a
24 cube Jupiter video wall with networked av systems that
talked to each other using intersystem communications
and e-control and the programming costs didn't even exceeded
nine thousand dollars and that’s with over 100 hours of
programming time budgeted. I don't know where you are
shopping from for your programming but you need to shop
around a little more you're getting a raw deal.

Which major firm are you referring to? I know you're not
calling tweeter a major firm for AV. Maybe low to mid
range consumer but in no way high end control. They where
little better then Circuit City which is another company
I would not call high end. Other than that honestly if
it's consumer I wouldn't know, it's not my market.

"6 figure's" is a wide range.

100k system with 50k in programming might seem a little
nutzoid but a 500k system with 50k programming is average
IMO.

"programming" is a relative term.

Some crestron programmers are providing solutions that
could be matched or done better with URC or RTI. Some
crestron programmers are providing solutions that most
CI's could never contemplate even if they took notes during
the walk thru and showed up completely sober.

I think QQQ is talking about Baumeister in Chicago. Tweeter
was almost a CI firm and CC was walmart without the clothing
department.

Adding.. project total cost might not be the best way
to estimate what the programming will cost.

As an example.. lets say someone has a full blown rediculous
movie theater that costs a million bucks. The programming
for the theater can be done in MUCH less time than a 32
zone DAV system with different displays and controller
models.

So even if the project total cost is the same the theater
can be completed in a day where the 32 zone system might
take a week or two.

Point is.. my 500k system is different from your 500k
system. Other things factor in also like.. are you using
the same touchpanel in every room or are you using 6 different
models.. 1 model means 1 GUI 6 models means 6 GUI's and
based on hard buttons and screen realestate.. making them
operate the same can be tricky and suck up alot of time.

A point that hasn't been mentioned.
A company enters into an agreement to sell AMX or Crestron
or whatever control product. I think you do so knowing
the complexity of what your getting yourself into and
the time and effort that will be required to be a good
dealer of the products.
Creating "code" or modules is all part of that. The reason
you create these is to hopefully have something you can
sell over and over again, thus making future projects
easier to set up. I don't know too many companies that
start to charge less for the programming of systems. As
Alan stated, all the time and effort gets paid off over
many projects. Yet to the client they are still paying
a conciderable amount to have their system "programmed".
I am sure a large portion of the bill is for actual used
time, and hopefully another part is for the modules.
All the talk about Dell or MS doesn't apply here. These
are not people going to BB and paying 129.00 for the latest
version of MS anything. If something did go wrong with
their software, it's cheap, they can go out and buy another
copy just about anywhere and be back up and running.

In our case they were "sold" a bunch of stuff to be their
control system. They were "sold" a bunch of ideas of what
the control system can and will do for them, based on
what your programmer is capable of. What I am sure many
were not "sold" was the idea that if something goes wrong
or needs changing in the future, it cannot be done by
any other dealer than you because no one else would be
able to access the "code".
I appreciate that a lot of time and effort goes into creating
working systems, but as a Creston or other programmer
you are not creating something that no one else in the
world could not have come up with. Your not painting the
next Mona Lisa, your making stuff work, based on what
was sold to the client. You didn't create the Creston
or other programming enviroment, it was supplied to you
as a dealer, and you are manipulating it based on the
system to be controlled.
The control of a piece of equipment in your system isn't
going to be different from someone else. The Play function
for brand X DVD player is the Play function and either
the IR or RS232 command will be the same in your system
as it will in someone elses.
If you have to write a module for something that has never
been controlled before, maybe your company should have
thought about that before selling it, or if it was a request
by the client, let him know that it needs a custom module
and will cost $1000's to build.

Personnally I think Crestron and AMX should register clients
and the dealers supply the needed code to them. This way
clients have a safeguard against dealers going out of
business.

I was nitpicking because if she is going to publish in
a magazine that it costs $50k for programming there is
no telling if her audience would realize she was generalizing
and if so to what extent.

A six figure job doesn't equate to $50k in programming.

Which major firm are you referring to?

Well, what else did I expect from a pig, but a grunt.
Julie, I hope you got more from URC and all the others
on this topic than I did! LOL Please be sure and let
us know when the article appears! I can't wait to read
it!


Mike

The policy of AVI-SPL is that the source code is licensed
to the customer. THat means they get a copy of the code
but with usage stipulations. The gist is that you can't
use the code to install clone rooms. The code is provided
so that should you decide for whatever reason to go with
someone else you have a upgrade path that doesn't force
you to a clean slate.

Bottom line check with your sales represenative to find
out the policy oif the AV firm regarding rights of the
software.

I think she was talking to us as pros, I give her more
credit than that.

Well again, what I said, and my wording may have been
less than clear so I will clarify, is that a system that
would require 50K in programming would likely be *at least*
a 500K system. I am not saying that a 500K system would
always involve 50K of programming, only that it could.
If 300K was on a high-end theater and 200K was on automation,
then no I do not think programming alone would be 50K.
But if that entire 500K was for automation and there
are ton of touchscreens and automation of every system
in the house at a very high level, than it is possible.
Now if you are saying you can't imagine that being the
case under any circumstances than I'll agree to disagree
while respecting your opinion.

I cannot say with certainty but I think this is the commercial
firm ([Link: avisystems.com])
I am remembering (the one I said was valued at 100 mil
at one point) that went under and left a lot of customers
in a bad way, unable to make even the simplest changes
to their boardroom systems because the customers did not
have the code.

The recent firm I mention is Baumeister who was a quite
well known residential firm that there is a thread about
here, sadly they closed their doors recently.

that's what I'm talking about.

I'm not sure if you mean that in a good or bad way.

I was nitpicking because if she is going to publish in
a magazine that it costs $50k for programming there is
no telling if her audience would realize she was generalizing
and if so to what extent. That could potentially do serious
damage to smaller companies with her making potentially
damaging statements to "educate" the market.

A six figure job doesn't equate to $50k in programming.

Hell I did a job at FEMA and MARFOCOM... low six
figures...av system including a ...video wall... networked av systems...
and the programming costs didn't even exceed
nine thousand dollars and that’s with over 100 hours of
programming time budgeted.

They were
little better than Circuit City which...
I would not call high end. Other than that, honestly, if
it's consumer I wouldn't know, it's not my market.

OC - I want you to go into how my ignorant post is so
absurd.