I don't have a problem with an educated customer as long as you present both sides of the story.

My problems are discussing unfamiliar territory with a client and keeping their attention long enough to explain my side of the story while explaining why the should even care.

An educated client would understand why we might have a two tier pricing structure on programming (we dont but might if more clients wanted the full code).

Sound ... exactly why this thread was started -- to get integrators thinking about these things, and prepared to answer the question: what happens if you go out of business or you just plain suck?

The key phrase is "an educated client". Who is going to educate them, an article in a magazine or the integrator, or I would suggest it should be both.
Automation systems really do require a little more understanding on the clients part because of the "code" issues.

People can go out and buy an expensive car, they know there is an engine that makes it go, but most have little to no interest in all the details of what makes the engine work. They don't need to know, the car comes with a warantee so any problems in the first few years are covered, and they also know that they can take their car to any number of places to have it serviced, modified or whatever. If they decide they don't like the place they bought it from they will not need anything special to go anywhere else.

From all that has been posted here the automation system without the code almost locks them into dealing with only the company that sold them the system, even though Crestron / AMX and others are large companies with dealers everywhere.

I know that the car dealer didn't "build" the engine to the clients specifications and thats what makes this such a tough issue to resolve. You as the programmer have customized work to protect, yet without a good education the client typically will have the perception that there are many of you out there just like there are many car dealers / shops and he should be able to go to any other programmer and get "service", without having to build an new engine.

It would be nice if a new CI could "adjust, service, and add items" to the programming but wouldnt be able to view or use code on any items outside of the system being serviced. Probably impossible but it would be nice.

The good news is that all the wizard based programming will mean that cookie cutter systems will be the norm in the days to come. That means no cool modules will be written offered used or stolen.

No one will be able to tell if its RTI, Crestron, Savant, AMX or X-10 unless they look hard enough to see the company logo thats on the rebadged controller thats built by someone else.

Examples of rebagded controllers...



[Link: lynkdata.co.uk]

[Link: ioconnections.com]

[Link: dtresearch.com]

[Link: cepro.com]

[Link: smarthomeuae.com]

The answer to the question at hand is, ME! Everyone send ME your programming files, I own them and I want them back.

This is the thread that doesn't end, it just goes on and on my friend...

If you are going to educate the consumers I would consider better fact checking and getting you figures corrected.

Where are you getting $50k for the cost of programming. Lots of single room government AV systems cost $50k total with the cost of programming included. You'd have to have one heck of a complex system to have programming expenses be $50k. Frankly if the programming cost was that much the system would be in the millions already and you don't buy those kind of systems from fly by night av dealers that won't be around. You buy thouse from places like AVI-SPL and Whitlock, at least in the DC area.

The policy of AVI-SPL is that the source code is licensed to the customer. THat means they get a copy of the code but with usage stipulations. The gist is that you can't use the code to install clone rooms. The code is provided so that should you decide for whatever reason to go with someone else you have a upgrade path that doesn't force you to a clean slate.

Bottom line check with your sales represenative to find out the policy oif the AV firm regarding rights of the software.

Well, here it is...at long last. The difinitive answer from URC that will solve all our problems, and put all our clients at ease as well. Whether you program URC, RTI, AMX or Crestron, I think you will find some nuggets in this email response that will be helpful to you. And I quote:.....

"Hello Michael,



We appreciate you contacting Universal Remote Control, Inc and your continued patronage. As a Professional installer it is up to you whether you provide a client with a copy of their remote configuration. Some professional installers provide their client with a copy of the remote configuration, while others prefer the client not to have access to the remote configuration and prefer the client to contact them for any changes or update that is needed. If there are any further questions or comments please feel free to contact the Universal Remote Control, Inc family at 1 (800) 901-0800, Monday thru Friday between 9 am to 6 pm EST or via our website select contact us.



Thank you for contacting Universal Remote Control, Inc.



Please do not reply to this email message. This mailbox is not monitored and you will not receive a response. For further assistance, please contact our technical support at 1.800.901.0800, Monday thru Friday 9 am to 6 pm EST or via our website select contact us."

End of quote.

Well, what else did I expect from a pig, but a grunt. Julie, I hope you got more from URC and all the others on this topic than I did! LOL Please be sure and let us know when the article appears! I can't wait to read it!

Mike

You know to refer to a professional as a pig because they charge money for their services is highly offensive. Why don't you go ask microsoft for the source code for windows in case you don't wan't to buy the next version of windows from microsoft.

Edit:

I don't want to sound like I'm putting anyone down but honestly if you can not afford to pay for Crestron or AMX programming you really don't need the gear. Equipment with rs-232 and ip control cost more then ir only devices. Just because you bought a large screen LCD doesn't mean it will have rs-232 or a cat5 jack. If you don't have either of those forms of discreet communications ports don't bother. Models with these jacks are generally more expensive. If you skimped on the av hardware to be controled it's a moot point.

First of all, I didn't refer to any professional programmers as a pig. I didn't refer to anyone as a pig really. It is a phrase, saying that a pig makes a grunt. To expect the pig to make any other noise would be asking too much.

Secondly, the remark was directed to the URC people who sent me that email.

Thirdly, you should read a thread in it's entirety before you judge someone else's words. If you had, you would know that I posted an open letter to URC to comment on the thread, and give us their position on the whole client/programmer/software liscense/editable code debate. That last post from me was their official response to me, in an email.

What else did I expect from a remote manufacturer but a response that puts zero liability on them. In other words, what else from a pig but a grunt.

Mike

Post 3 of this thread


Thats pretty much what the URC email said and its the ongoing issue/debate/argument thru the entire thread.


The client should be made aware of the issue...presented with options...billed accordingly.

I did read the thread and I understand where you are coming from but I thought your pig remark was out of line.

1) The manufacturer is not in direct control of the dealer and their value added services.

2) Because one dealer is more expensive than the other does not make the manufacturer money grubbing. If you don’t like the way one dealer does business find another dealer and stop blaming the manufacturer.

3) (viewpoint of a company that has invested money into training and development to create the product you expect the source code to be provided for free) I don't know where you got your since of entitlement but after you go through a year of training for Crestron and AMX and program a bunch of systems and realize that giving source code to customers means that your competitors will see how you do things effectively giving away trade secrets I doubt very much you would be all for total open disclosure of your trade for free. If you want the source code you need to find a company that will license it or pay for the rights to the code, it’s that simple. If you don’t like that you can either make your own AV system or buy an inferior product that doesn’t require programming.

Again I don’t mean to be offensive; I’m just telling you the way it is. That said I can sympathize with where you are coming from because programming can get expensive. Like I said before if you have the gear that will actually make use of the control system and make your investment worth while hire a local programmer for a side job. That’s your best chance to get the source code and a cheaper rate because of the lack of overhead.

edit: fixed a line break

I'll respond for Julie. Obviously she was making a generalization and is well aware of the range of programming costs so I'm not sure why you are nitpicking on this and incorrectly trying to suggest she does not know what she is talking about.


Quite humorous that a few sentences after chiding Julie for not using correct figures you are throwing around some questionable ones. A system certainly does not have to be "in the millions" to incur 50k in programming. More than 500K? Usually yes in my experience, but not necessarily in the millions.


That's a joke right? Are you aware that it was the demise of a major firm that brought about this discussion in the first place? I can think of 5 major firms that have gone under in recent years. One of them was a commercial firm that I believe at one time had a value of 100 million dollars. Don't quote me on that, but they were a large national firm.

I was nitpicking because if she is going to publish in a magazine that it costs $50k for programming there is no telling if her audience would realize she was generalizing and if so to what extent. That could potentially do serious damage to smaller companies with her making potentially damaging statements to "educate" the market.

I’m not saying that AV systems are cheap or the typical AV system is expensive, just that in the grand scheme of things the programming cost is not the largest piece of the bill and the price alone without explaining what type of AV system the programming was for it is way too easy to take out of context. My figures on government systems are not generic. While I cannot provide the paper work to back up the general figures, for obvious reasons, I stated that is the average price tag of the total cost of ownership of basic AV systems with one projector, 8x8 RGBHV Extron switcher, combo DVD/VCR, Crestron AV2, and touch panel, plus labor and programming is about $50,000. There are of course other factors like what pricing the customer qualifies for, like for example do they qualify for GSA pricing or not.

The price adds up faster than you might think. The cheapest I've ever seen for a Crestron controlled AV system was $35,000 and there was so many corners cut to reduce costs the system was essentially crippled by lack of feature support.

A six figure job doesn't equate to $50k in programming. Hell I did a job at FEMA and MARFOCOM where they spent in the low six figures on their av system including a 24 cube Jupiter video wall with networked av systems that talked to each other using intersystem communications and e-control and the programming costs didn't even exceeded nine thousand dollars and that’s with over 100 hours of programming time budgeted. I don't know where you are shopping from for your programming but you need to shop around a little more you're getting a raw deal. (oh and like I said where I worked the source code was licensed to the customer free of charge for use in upgrading the system with the dealer of their choice so not all dealers hold clients hostage)

Which major firm are you referring to? I know you're not calling tweeter a major firm for AV. Maybe low to mid range consumer but in no way high end control. They where little better then Circuit City which is another company I would not call high end. Other than that honestly if it's consumer I wouldn't know, it's not my market.