Buzz,
First, let me say that I am revulsed at the name "AVGOD" being used by someone who is at the same time trying to sell product to me, trying to explain how four lines of Sonance will somehow not be confused by the customer, and writing in "marketing-ese" instead of good old English.

Oh, yes, and telling me that two lines will not be available to everybody...and trying to slip by us that our line and one other WILL be available to everybody.

Buzz, the language that you use sounds like bullshit. I leave it to others to figure out if there really is some "there" there.

As for your member name, your choice of names puts you in company with the last guy I dealt with who had a name of this ilk was "[email protected]," Marlon Brando's old email address (no longer valid, so don't waste time looking). And Marlon is, as he told me once, occasionally an asshole.


That, Buzz, is the nutshell we live in out here. The end user will not think because you name it a different series that it is a different product. Sonance is Sonance, right?

If you somehow believe that the customer will not compare to the custom installing business when they see SONANCE with whatever series names you hang on them, then try this: market them without the Sonance name. That is a neat solution to this problem. It will prove that the speakers will sell if they are good, not just if the customer confuses them with the Sonance-named product we sell, and it will keep us from having one more bit of marketing BS to explain to customers (see any thread regarding BOSE for an example of explaining BS to customers and how much energy it can take).


This message was edited by Ernie Bornn-Gilman on 08/28/03 20:50.

I think he was doing a cut & paste quote from Sonance, and I didn't read anything there that he interjected; it could have been a "for what it's worth" post.

You have a point, though. I would like to see a different handle. Maybe I could change mine to Omnipotent Audio Expert, More Skilled Than Any Other That Draws Breath.....

Theaterworks,
I posted in order to look at other posts and edit from there. I should have been finished sooner. Sorry for the weird-looking post. It now says what I wanted to say.

I like your proposed handle. Just how does one pronounce OAEMSTOTDB?

Yeah, you have a point. It took me long enough to learn to pronounce this one, and I still don't quite have a lock on the spelling thing. I'll stick with what I have.

I love your point about removing the Sonance brand name to see if the product sells itself. It won't happen, of course, but I would love to see a -Merlot or a -Designer at Home Depot.

It frustrates me to invest my credibility with clients promoting a brand only to have the whole thing underminded by a marketing change. Inevitable in many cases, but that's what made me move to Paradigm, Boston, etc. They may make the same move, but it's still a long way off.

Yeah... What Mcnasty Said!
Yeah... What Ernie Said!

And I'll again add my 2 cents...

What Buzz and Sonance fail to see as well is that their "growth" grows the industry in a way that undermines it as a whole. They are ushering more and more "new" businesses into the integration field... ones who's qualifications are suspect. All businesses must grow and in doing so they can change the field around them. Someone as big as Sonance, doing something like this, has a large scale effect.

Pretty soon a customer will have as many choices as a person going to buy a used car. I know great car salespeople... I know snakes. I know knowledgeable car salespeople... I know those who barely know where the key goes and care about nothing more than the money. As a result... what do most people think about used car salespeople. Where has that industry gone?There will always be knowledgeable and conscientious designers and integrators out there... it will just be harder for the average Joe customer to find them among the myriad of electricians, security guys, General contractors, plumbers, retail AV guys working on the side, Radio Shack installers, trunkslammers, guys with a business license that has nothing to do with our industry who the distributor gladly sold to anyway, etc., etc., etc. The more clients who get it up the wazoo without lubricant... the more our industry suffers. The trust we have experienced in the past will erode... as will the margins... trust me on this. It is inevitable and it is not all Sonance's fault. It just means that you have to continue to do your best and keep yourself positioned against this tide.

Why do I say it's not all Sonance's fault. Because even our beloved CEDIA was at an electrical trade conference trying to grow their membership (grow or die!) among sparkies with a wonderful and I'm sure very empowering "Managing Home Cinema Projects" class (lasting all of an hour and a half). This now means that some poor unsuspecting client will get hit first by his builders Sparky. In a lot of cases simplicity means he/she will go ahead with said Sparky. The unfortunate part of this equation is that he'll/she'll end up with a mismatched bunch of boxes from the local distributors clearance bin, a table full of remotes and a poorly programmed universal (due to last years TOADS being in that clearance bin), a design not conducive to AV enjoyment and a bad taste in his/her mouth. When he/she has his/her housewarming party, the seven families that see the unimpressive system will not be wowed and instead will themselves continue to contribute to the growth of Circuit City and Best Buy as they will have no compelling reason to seek out a real system integrator.

Those of you who in previous posts have said you aren't worried about this at all are (as I said in my previous post), enjoying your current success but effectively sticking your head in the sand. I'd be watchful and unafraid (as Ernie and McNasty are) to let these bastards have it. Do it in more ways that just verbally also... the best message you can send is to quit buying things when they get overdistributed. Let Virtuoso die while "Builder Special" prospers... then save this thread and send it to em a couple of years from now while their growth focus group is trying to figure out why this happened and how they can win us back.

This message was edited by rhm9 on 08/29/03 11:40.

Who the hell cares if the guy's forum name is AVGOD?

Ernie, it seem like you've had a corn cob stuck up your ass for as long as I've been reading your posts. For God's sake, go to a doctor and see if they can help you remove it. Maybe you'll even have some fun in the process.

Post broken into 3 parts and is directed to just about everyone in this thread (in other words, NOT just rhm9 even though I quote him below).


You misunderstood my previous post and intent. The ENTIRE point of my comments was that we must be able to adapt to the market AND as PART of that need to be able to run successful businesses without DEPENDING on “exclusives”, because there may come a day when exclusives are few and far between.

Do huge construction firms worth hundreds of millions of dollars get there because they have exclusives on lumber? Do huge PC consulting firms that receive 10 million dollar contracts for integrating Microsoft Windows networks get there because they have exclusives on Windows?

This message was edited by QQQ on 08/29/03 17:16.

Our industry is going to continue to grow exponentially over the next 10 years. The growth potential is HUGE! For practical purposes, our industry is still in the infant stage. As it continues to grow, products are going to be more and more widely distributed and more and more people are going to enter our industry. We can look upon this is a bad thing and whine and moan and groan about it – or we can look upon this as a HUGE opportunity that is going to make many of us millionaires MANY times over.

People, the fact that Sonance is doing something you personally don’t like does NOT mean it is a bad business move for Sonance! Anyone that thinks companies such as Sonance are going to sit idly by and not try to increase their market share have their head buried in the sand. The question is what are you going to do as these market changes take place? If the ONLY answer you can come up with is to drop Sonance, you need to re-evaluate your business plan. Because in a few years the product you jumped to will also become more widely distributed. And at some point you’re going to HAVE to adapt.


This message was edited by QQQ on 08/29/03 18:04.

The writing is ALREADY on the wall. Electricians are going to become more and more involved in our industry. GET OVER IT!!! Manufacturers are going to start to market directly to builders and electricians more and more. GET OVER IT!!!

Now I need to clarify a few statements above:
1. I said that the fact that Sonance is doing something you personally don’t like does NOT mean it is a bad business move! That does not mean I am saying that it is a good business move. I would have to study the issue far more to make that determination. What I am saying is that most of you are making your arguments that what Sonance is doing is stupid from a STRICLTY selfish standpoint - which has NOTHING to do with whether it is a good business decision (for Sonance). To use an analogy, we may all think BOSE speakers are horrible but that has NOTHING to do with whether the BOSE Wave radio or sub/sat systems were “good business moves”.

2. I am NOT saying that exclusives are not desirable from a business point of view. Clearly they are. I AM saying that as our industry grows there will be far fewer of them and the companies that will be the most successful will do so for reasons that have little to do with exclusives.


This message was edited by QQQ on 08/29/03 14:23.

<< Actually the TWICE article is causing some confusion out there. We [Sonance] have absolutely no intention of selling Sonance branded products to security & electricians, however our new Architectural Audio by Sonance branded products will be sold to that channel. >>

If the Architectural Audio series did not have "By Sonance" printed on the box no one would have any problem. But, in fact, it will and this new series will be presented by security people & electricians simply as: Sonance - not Architectural Audio. This delutes the value of the Sonance name to specialty and custom dealers since consumers and home builders don't distingush by different "series," (of speakers) only by price.

What Sonance is doing is not new. It has been done by many companies before - go to specialists to build their brand - then go mass market and harvest the benefits. Bose did it, Polk did it, Boston did it, etc. So now we pay special attention to the long term aspirations of the management of the companies we choose to partner with. We carry Paradigm and B&W who have excellent brand recognition, and both have sent letters to their dealers confirming: NO NATIONAL ACCOUNTS, NO MAIL ORDER/INTERNET DEALERS (zero tolerance), and NO DISTRIBUTORS.

B&W terminated Sound Advice, their largest dealer in the world, when Tweeter purchased the chain. Paradigm tracked down and terminated a dealer for selling one pair of speakers via Internet. That's commitment. We take care to identify and support the companies that support specialists. It cuts down on the "surprises."

Sonance has the right to do whatever they wish with their company. It's just that by playing off of the Sonance name with this new series, they are stepping on the toes of those dealers who helped build the name recognition when Sonance was not well known. That's the rub.




This message was edited by sndtowne on 09/02/03 11:46.

Broken into two posts:

I agree that brand name dilution is a very real issue but I doubt it applies here. The argument has been made by several and it *may* have some validity. However, I'm curious. Do all of you refuse to sell Lutron Homeworks because Lutron is sold in Home Depot? In FACT, doesn’t Lutron dominate the lighting control market and do you suppose *part* of the reason for that might be that consumers, architects and builders recognize the Lutron name BECAUSE it is widely distributed!

Now if you step back from this and try to look at it from a non-emotional perspective, do you suppose that maybe, just maybe that as the Sonance name becomes more widely recognized, that might carry some major benefits for Sonance dealers? AND THAT AS A DIRECT DEALER YOU HAVE ACCESS TO THE “GOOD STUFF”, WHICH COULD ACTUALLY GIVES YOU AN ADVANTAGE OVER THE ELECTRICIAN (A REASON FOR THE CUSTOMER TO BUY FROM YOU INSTEAD OF THE ELECTRICIAN)!!!

This message was edited by QQQ on 08/29/03 18:13.

Is the glass half empty or is it half full????

Scoop

Taking into acoount that this thread is virtually beaten to death, let me add my nail. In my area there are many large & medium size union eletric companys offering more services to the customer/home buyer. In most cases at least here those customers have little choice while the home is being built, because the add on electronics are sold with the home so it's built into the morgage. This is an attractive option for the customer and most of them do not want to deal with trying to get it added in later. I/we know this is a terrible decision from our point of view but look at it from theirs.
In relation to Sonance in paticular they are nothing in my area. If I told one of my customers I was suggesting Sonance for the speakers in the home they would say fine I am sure. However do any of the people that I deal with know who Sonance even is or ever heard of them ...No! In fact in relation to in walls which is the only product of theirs I would even consider who cares. Even though I dislike the strategies that some MFGs eventually move to I can't really question their motives since they are there to make a buck! Moral is..it's gonna get worse you can count on it..weather the storm and use the eventual bad name that the electricians/alarm CO's will get or move on to another business!

Way to go Q,

See... you have too many intelligent things to say to be pulling your posts. Maybe I should try to put up a post per point instead of droning on till people are bored to death.

Hidden in my message is the very point you spoke of. Sonance does need to grow and this is the way they're deciding to do it. I also meant that the entry of more businesses is inevitable. You used home builders as an example. Some get big, exceptional, rich, etc. Others go by the wayside. Some build one house... do it wrong and die a quick and painful death. Same thing here... Sears is now sending their appliance install crews out with new lettering advertising the installation of home electronics. Am I worried about this? NO! If the client wants a dishwasher guy to hook up his Bose system... all well and good.

As far as apadting, I still like to send a message by not buying from manufacturers that whore. I'm fully aware that it is not my divine right to an exclusive but it is my right to represent manufacturers of my choice. Let me relate a story... We had a client call us who wanted an Integra Research Stack. He, as many clients here in Microsoftieland, felt that he should pay 50% less than retail because he knows this stuff is marked up 75% (sic). We told him that we would not budge on price, even if it meant losing a sale... he liked us , liked our ideas for his theatre but didn't go with us for this reason. He also got really pissed when we told him that if we did his install and he got the products from Georgia or Florida at the price some other dealer finally quoted him that we would get the serial #s and turn them in, immediately ceasing this dealers relationship with Integra. At an Integra conference we found that every single Integra dealer in Washington had been hit by this guy... AND NOT ONE OF THEM DROPPED TROU FOR HIM! I have lots of competition from Integra dealers around here but it's nice to know that I'll lose a deal because my presentation wasn't as good... not because one of my cohorts is whoring it out. For now... I'll run my business along this principle. As things change... I'll continue to adapt and go with the general flow because even though most of you read my attempts at witty sarcasm to be whinging... I love this business and I'm not really as pissed off as I come across sometimes.