On January 5, 2016 at 15:50, Sean@iTank said...
If by custom you mean a custom, scalable, and extensible programming framework and UI... They have paid for 10-20 hours of commissioning time to deploy our programming framework into their system, not for the 1500+ hours it took to build it.
This brings a compromise to mind. Over the years I've noticed something about equipment rentals: Under normal circumstances it seems by the time you're done, you've paid about a tenth of the price of the thing you're renting.
Why not offer to provide a copy of the source code to the client for one tenth the cost (at your retail programming rate) of that 1500 hours? Just disclosing that you're offering it at 10% of its cost, then quoting them the staggering sum that would be, would make the point that no matter what the client thinks, there is REALLY valuable stuff in there and you cannot simply give it away.
This would be done with a contract that restricts them to use only in the one system they now have. While this, in itself, really guarantees nothing, it may bias the customer in favor of you doing the further work. (Of course, now it's up to you not to be a jerk, nor to lose the files yourself, etc etc.)
On January 3, 2016 at 16:30, tweeterguy said...
How is Savant handled in regards to the client's configuration files? Open to any Savant dealer or can it be locked down?
I doubt that many Savant dealers are reading through these long paragraphs. I suggest you start a thread about this to catch the eye of the Savant dealer who couldn't care less about Crestron and Control4.
And, guys, it's hoard, not horde.
On January 3, 2016 at 22:10, Audible Solutions said...
...the best way to do this is with Crestron. Which is why so many consultant specs have Crestron DM in them. And the code is delivered to the end user in every case.
Every programmer I've ever run into will not deliver the code. What's the size of your survey base and what is the actual percentage of programmers who delivered the code in that survey?
Residential jobs do have these issues and I'm sorry but it's as much the fault of the client as anyone else in the food chain.
The client depends on the skill, honesty and openness of the programmer to disclose the details. As someone just said, they'd be loath to sign a programming contract after being told they cannot have the code. Again, the dealers I've known simply do not tell the clients.
A lot of those complaining are also those who sigh contracts on which they do not pay.
If that is an issue, then the programmer is going into the contract with the expectation that the client won't pay, and he should say so at the outset.
But there are also jobs where the dealer is a jerk or has disappeared. At that point the client can vote with his feet and many do.
But the Crestron client has to vote with his wallet AGAIN, too.
But the idea that a configuration system is the same as a control system in terms of development is why these discussions go nowhere.
What is there of value about the development part of a system that makes the average customer want to pay much more for that development? Isn't the final control product the issue? I can have a car custom made or I can buy off a lot. If my goal is ease of driving, safety, and normal auto issues, why would it impress me that I could get a custom-made car?
And a commercial client, which is what an educational institution is that does not get the code has either used a residential dealer without a consultant or is just dumb.
The only reasonable way not to be dumb on this subject is to be "cheated" once. Sure, everyone you know explains all about the code to the client ahead of time... really? Is it boilerplate in your contracts?
Please do not tell me that ignorance is a defense.
But it is reasonable for a customer to believe that he owns what he receives. He receives the programming.
Actually, the only place that you and I differ is that I do not believe Crestron programmers make a point of telling every client that the code will not belong to the client. Over and over, it's an astounding and outrageous surprise to people -- yes, consumers -- that the code belongs to the programmer.
Your comparison with Windows is not valid. Everybody buys Windows with the expectation that they are going to get a program that they have to tolerate and that they'll have to not only pay for, but pay for all over again just to put the same damn code on an additional computer.
On January 4, 2016 at 08:25, Mario said...
Sure you paid an artist to paint you.
And, as you get older, uglier and/or get new wife or more kids, you'll have to pay said artist to paint a whole new painting.
No. Your family can't suddenly get a bright new kid because the old one got obsolete; or quit working and only a new model was available. Bad metaphor.
On January 4, 2016 at 17:22, Richie Rich said...
We provide this upon final client sign off and us receiving our final payment.
There should be a signature for it before you accept a contract (maybe you get this; you did not say). Once the system is done, the customer can hardly not "sign off" on this; that would mean all the work done would be wasted.
There are only 2 projects I have done in the past few years where the client doesn't have the project file.
Guess what they forgot to give us?
...and, good point. Again, though, it should be explained at the start. See, you have zero bargaining leverage now, since they have the working system. You only have leverage when they decide to make changes or sell the house.
