I have cousin that is the head AV tech for a large school district. Got a call from him asking if I knew any Crestron dealers because he has a system in the High School auditorium with a touch screen malfunctioning. I gave him some names of guys that I know in the area when told me that original dealer sold his business and retired. Plus, did not give the buyer any of the customer programming files. New owner informed my cousin that he could replace the bad touch screen but would have to reprogram the whole system which controls audio - video - lifts - screen & lights. Since the dollar figure to replace the touch screen escalates with the reprogramming, the district is required to get 3 quotes.

There are a few Control 4 dealers in my area that we are friendly with. From time to time we help each other out. They get us new DirecTV clients & we sometimes provide help for a day to help with the basic parts of their installations. Recently, we were hanging a 70" TV for 1 of the Control4 companies. Customer was telling us he was so happy the Control4 tech plus us were there because he had been trying for 2 months to get his original C4 company there to do the system upgrade that we were assisting with. When the customer was not around, I asked the C4 tech how easy or hard it is to take over an existing C4 system without totally reprogramming & he informs me that the customer files all exists out on the web & that customer requested a change of dealer to them which made files available for changes & update.

When I heard this, I suddenly realized why C4 has made such progress in competing with Crestron. Time & time again, we are called to a home to install DirecTV & the AV integration company is required to reprogram from previous provider to DirecTV. When the system is a C4 reprogramming, we hardly ever hear a customer complain. When the system is a Crestron reprogramming, quite often we hear a customer complain because of a falling out between them & original dealer.

Now it all makes sense!

Several times over the years we talked, discussed, argued and yelled about the merits/advantages of 'ownership of the code'.

Many people feel that once programmer is paid for his/her time, the work (code) belongs to the owner.

Others argue that the way program is written, the custom routines, the graphics, overlays, etc. are proprietary.
No different than someone paying for a copy of Windows10 and demanding full, uncompiled code.
Or asking restaurant to provide step-by-step instructions of how to prepare a meal that one just purchased.


I personally can understand both sides, though as a programmer I tend to sit on the programmer owning the work.

Years and years of experience, hours upon hours of creating ones graphics, subroutines, etc. does not equal the hours paid in providing finished product.

It's the reason that Windows10 is ~11GB once installed.
Micsosoft would have to charge a lot more money if they had to create each version of operating system from scratch.
Upside would be that the OS would be a LOT smaller, would run more efficiently and in theory would be more stable.

BTW, lets be crystal clear that:
- Control4 system is configured (just like URC, RTI, HAI, Lutron, etc.).
whereas
- Crestron system is programmed.

There is risk for everyone. The customer risks lock-in to a retired person or out of business company or some sort of personality clash. On this level, I think that the customer is entitled to a copy of the program/configuration. On the other side, the programmer risks code acquisition by a competitor or being thrown into "open source".

Perhaps, some sort of escrow scheme could be worked out. I don't know if we could find a truly neutral 3rd party broker, acceptable to all parties. I think that the remote manufacturer should be the broker -- with very clear rules about when the escrow could be fetched. The manufacturer is in the best position to provide assistance to both sides when stale versions are encountered.

I'm not so worried about my code leaking out. I have a unique style and the programs are very specific to the installation. Another programmer will probably not enjoy working with my code and will burn too much time familiarizing. Besides, in some cases I use a privately developed code generator and little details that are a cheap trick for my code generator will be over the top for someone working only with the target code. However, in some cases I have licensed artwork that can easily be broken out by a skilled person and I would like to protect that artwork from an open release.

MFG is the 'only' neutral party that has vested interest in maintaining balance.

On one hand, they have a client that wants to continue to use their product, and hopefully recommend it, generate future revenue in upgrades, etc.

On the other hand, you have a stilled programmer who supports MFG's platform, thus generating happy customers and referrals.


I do think that C4 struck a good balance.
From what I understand, C4 will contact dealer of record to understand why client is seeking release of code.
I've been told that if it's payment, schedule, contract dispute, etc. then C4 will stay out of it and let the involved parties duke it out.
If said dealer is no longer active in the role or can't be contacted, then the code is released to another, certified dealer.

I'm not C4 or Crestron, so I have no skin in the game.
I'm also not saying that shady things don't happen from time to time.

nope. not even close.

Control4 doesn't horde the code at all. Just recently they have given is a place to store backups on their server. But that's all it is. backups.

The entire program... Configuration, if you will, resides on the main controller in the system. Anyone on the local network with the correct C4 software can access, backup, and modify the system.

The registered owner of the system can log into their control4 account at ANY time and change their dealer of record themselves.

If a customer calls or emails C4 about changing, they may attempt to reengage the registered dealer.

Got it.

How is Savant handled in regards to the client's configuration files? Open to any Savant dealer or can it be locked down?

If a Crestron dealer is going to horde the code, they should at least explain to the customer that if they company goes out of business or the code is MIA, that the customer has to pay someone to re-program the entire system. I'm guessing this information is withheld from the customer in most cases. I know I would never agree to that if I was paying what some people pay for a custom programmed Crestron system.

I was going to avoid this as it is impossible to have these discussions unless you've walked a mile in someone's shoes. Almost no C4 dealers develop code. A few but very few Savant dealers do. Slightly more but only slightly more Crestron dealers develop code.

I work for a large Crestron dealer and we give the code to the end user all of the time. In commercial, it is so typical that it's part of the bid process. If you didn't know that or "your buddy told you...." then you are guilty of using a narrative.

C4 or Savant have made few inroads into commercial because the most important aspect of commercial is HDMI switching of non-consumer HDMI resolutions and the best way to do this is with Crestron. Which is why so many consultant specs have Crestron DM in them. And the code is delivered to the end user in every case.

Residential jobs do have these issues and I'm sorry but it's as much the fault of the client as anyone else in the food chain. A lot of those complaining are also those who sigh contracts on which they do not pay. But there are also jobs where the dealer is a jerk or has disappeared. At that point the client can vote with his feet and many do. But the idea that a configuration system is the same as a control system in terms of development is why these discussions go nowhere. And a commercial client, which is what an educational institution is that does not get the code has either used a residential dealer without a consultant or is just dumb. Now they want remuneration for being dumb. Please do not tell me that ignorance is a defense. It's a business. And the real business plan of companies like C4 is to give the least qualified the ability to offer an experience the best qualified offer. It has its benefits but it's also the reason our industry is on the same race to the bottom that caused so many quality display manufacturers to vacate the market

Savant configs are not locked down and can easily be extracted from the host computer.

This post hits me as i am sitting here recreating IR files for a System Builder programmed system that i have to service tomorrow. I used to (10 years ago) do most of our smaller system crestron programming with System Builder. These days everything is done by a professional Crestron programmer that we partner with.

About a year ago the client had her composite cable box replaced with a new one. Client had DISH Network but the building supplies the cable box and she uses it as backup for when DISH isn't working. New cable box had component so i decided to rewire it to the component switch and distribute it to all of the rooms instead of just the one room like it was before. I didn't have to do any of this but i figured "why not". I had to do a bunch of programming for the "Send To" menu (sends a selected source to any other zone you choose).

I left that job and forgot all about it until now. A week or so ago i dumped VMWare and Windows 7 and used boot camp to install windows 10. Since all of my data was in my egnyte folder i didn't have much work to do in terms of moving and backing things up before the switch. The one thing i forgot to do was export the System Builder Archive and back up the User Database. Keep in mind i hadn't touched system builder in years and then after i used it that one day i didn't touch it again for 2 years.

All of that work is gone and i have to start over with the older file. And now that the cable boxes has been a distributed source i cant just scale it back to a local source in one room. Sure would be nice to be able to extract the file when i arrive on site.

I cant think of a single reason to not want to give/leave the client with their "code".

To be clear here...there are two files with most systems.

Project File - The editable file used to program the system.

Compiled File - The compiled file that actually runs on the hardware.

It would be nice if both were uploaded automagically to the processor. It would save a lot of people a lot of trouble.

As we speak, I'm backing up all of my remote configurations and code. Most of them are on a laptop and if something happens ... .

I feel that owning a code to custom written product is akin to owning a painting.

Sure you paid an artist to paint you.

And, as you get older, uglier and/or get new wife or more kids, you'll have to pay said artist to paint a whole new painting.

Same here with Crestron.

You paid for a solution and you got finished product.

Changing equipment, system updates, etc. will require a change/update.
If existing dealer does the work, he 'should' have the working file.
If you go with new dealer, he should not 'steel' previous dealer's IP (Intellectual Property) methods, graphics, etc.

one solution with Crestron is to keep compiled versions on the processor or a USB thumb drive at the client's location.

In the example presented the touch panel could have been replaced and loaded without issue.

If a new devices is added to a system or hardware changed etc, yeah things need to get reprogrammed.