Hi everyone,

I'm fairly knowledgeable about computers and most electronics, but I'm new to the universal remote world, so I ask for patience and thank you all right off the bat for any help.

I'm wondering what the need/relationship is between JP1 and having discrete codes in a universal remote. For example, let's talk about the One For All 8910. Will tthe 8910's code libraries have discrete codes available, even if my original remotes only have toggle on/off or input select?

I know that some devices just don't have discrete codes available, but I guess I'm asking when the "advanced codes" will add discrete capabilities, and when I would need to resort to using a JP-1 connection and working with the CCF Pronto files accessible on this site or the Yahoo group. Could I enter one of the hex codes directly into the remote, or would that need a JP-1?

And if I went with a Pronto TSU-500 instead of the 8910, how would this change, since I understand the Pronto "needs" a PC connection? (I'm just interested in the programming/technological differences -- I know there's quite a price differential between the 8910 and TSU-500.)

I'm just hesitant to spend the extra for a JP-1 cable if it's only something I'll need for a few hours to program my remote. I've just gotten some new components, so I don't see upgrading my system for awhile, and therefore really see the cable as a 1-time-use kind of thing.

Again, thanks for all the help. I'm sorry to sound like such a newbie. ;)
Larry

Hmmmm, 10.00 for a cable mite be too much, but shelling out for a pronto isn't? Most guys continually use their cables to "tweak" their remotes, always searching for that really creative "masterpiece", especially when they start playing with extenders.
If and what advance codes are available is more determined by the idiots that made your devices than on UEIC having discrete codes available. Even the list of discrete codes that are published may not neccessarily include all of the ones that actually work. The only way to know that is to test all 256 possible efc's and see which your device mfr. made functional.
Generally, an oem remote will use the power toggle codes because that only requires one button, not 2, one for on, one for off. It's a button saivor "feature". Same for toggle inputs. However, many times discretes can be found for inputs. each device is device specific, no one can "predict" what a particular mfr. will do or allow. It's usually the users, and particularly the JP-1 users that find these hidden discretes, and also the pronto folks.
You can't force a particular device to use discretes, no matter how hard you try, if the device mfr. didn't allow for it; that's in the firmware of the receiver, cd player, or whatever. If you can't find the discrete that you want, don't blame ueic, they didn't set up the firmware.
You don't need JP-1 to do an advance code search; you could manually try all 256 possible efcs for a device setup code and just note the efc that works, and the function it performs. You could then many times use keymoves to add those missing functions, provided it doesn't use a combo code for the device setup code.
While JP-1 can perform magic, unfortunately it can't produce miracles.
Jim

Hi Larry. I am no expert on the JP-1 and the OFA remotes, but this is how I understand it.

The OFA remotes have two type of memory (one section for learnt codes and one section that is preprogrammed) Usually the learning memory is very limited. The JP-1 gives you the ability to overwrite the preprogrammed area. So the JP-1 is more important for someone that has equipment that is not part of the original code list.

The Pronto comes with a cable and editing software. To see what it can do the best thing is to visit the file section

Actually most eeproms in JP-1 remotes would have 3 memory areas, keymoves/macros, learning (if a learner), and "device upgrades" area. Native codes are stored on the rom's in the processor chip, and these are inaccessible to JP-1. When a eeprommed equipped remote is programmed with a device code, it first looks in the eeprom for the device setup code, if it doesn't find a match, it looks in the processor chip. If it doesn't find one there, the remote indicates that the setup code was "rejected".
Learning memory space usually allows for between 20 and 30 learned signals. Sometimes more, depends on the complexity of the signal. You can't overwrite what's in the processor, but you can delete and resuse what you have programmed to the eeprom. Modem upgrades can oftentimes overwrite device upgrades, so if you ask for a modem upgrade file, you should also make sure they regive the previous ones you got if you want to keep them.
Extenders in many cases allows you to shift the learning space for more macro/keymove space at the expense of the learning capability. If you have another JP-1 learner, losing that isn't generally a problem, and can make the other a much more powerful device. Mostly with JP-1 learning is used as a tool, to use IR to diagnose and dissect the signals that you learn, then either use keymoves to actually use those signals, or make a device upgrade that includes the missing ones. This is akin to an MX-500 user using a JP-1 remote to emit the signals learned by his MX-500. Once he has them learned to his MX-500, he no longer needs his JP-1 remote to emit the signals, so he can dump them out of his UEIC remote and use it to tackle another problem.
Jim

Thanks to everyone for the feedback.

I'm definitely interested in the Home Theater Master MX-500. I've heard great things about it, and it satisfies my needs for 1) learning, 2) ability to label buttons, and 3) high # of macro capability. The only drawback to it is that it can't be directly programmed with discrete codes.

So I was thinking I would also buy an OFA, which I could use to program discrete codes, then "teach" those codes to the MX-500. I'd then either re-sell the virtually new OFA, or give it to a friend or something like that. I've seen bundles of the MX-500 with either the 8811 or 8910, both with and without the JP-1 cable.

I know the availability of discrete codes depends on my equiptment, but I guess II have 2 questions:

1) I will get more discretes and button capabilities doing it this way than by just buying an MX-500 by itself, right?

2) How much additional benefit will I get from the JP-1 cable over just trying the EFC's on the OFA remote? Is it true to say "If there's a Pronto file with my discretes on it, I can use the JP-1 to load it onto the OFA without extensive searching of all 250+ EFC's." ? If that's true, is that the only advantages to the JP-1?

Thanks again for all of the help.

The Mx500 is a great remote!

1) Yes

2) Try the efc's first, you can always go the jp1 route later.

I agree with ken, also a lot of the discrete codes in the Pronto file section came from OFA remotes :-)

The point here is, the pronto or MX-500 just don't have the customer support to get any discrete codes. Any found in the ccf files are shared by pronto users; the MX-500 has to have a face-to-face direct input.
Of the three, by themselves, IF there is a discrete code in the firmware of a particular device, only the OFA with JP-1 has the full capability to find it. Today, tomorrow, next month, a year from now, a device mfr. is going to concoct a new device setup code for his device. "He" may utilize an existing setup code, or may combine several, or come up with a totally new one. Can you gurantee that you won't purchase a new device in the future? While the idea of getting an ofa and dumping it when your done NOW with it may for now seem like an attractive idea, what about three months from now when the wife unexpectedly gets you that "really advanced" dvd player? Or MP-3, or cd burner, or whatever? Or next year when you decide to take that tax refund and get the latest in TV's? If you had a pronto, you could wait till someone posts a ccf file for that new critter. But what about in the meantime? Run out and get another ofa and cable for your MX-500? Just to get back some of your 30 bucks or so you sold the one you had.
Don't handicap yourself with a marginal ofa, get a decent one with learning, and the cable. What happens not to be in it, you can put in it; at home, at your leisure, and with a good support group via the JP-1 group.
The advantage to the cable is being able to sit at home and add both device setup upgrades, AND new protocols; other than sending the remote in to ueic, you CAN'T program in new protocols manually. You CAN'T input new device setup codes manually. The postage fees alone sending a remote in for ONE device upgrade would have paid for the dang cable.
Jim

James just to clear up some things you seem to be insinuating

1) jp-1 and posted codes for the OFA are just as much grass roots as the Pronto file section

2) All the codes in OFA remotes are also built into the Pronto's, since Philips has licensed the database, it is also updated with every new firmware release (so it is not static like the database on your OFA remote

3) The Pronto HEX format (how the code is saved) is totally understood and can be easily manipulated, so it is easier to find an unknown discrete code using a Pronto then a OFA (and as proof I offer that Robman got a pronto for that exact reason)

But remember, I got my Pronto before we had JP1, now that JP1 is available it offers a much cheaper way of grabbing IR signals and seeing what they are made of.

But I totally agree that both the Pronto and JP1 are "grass roots", don't look to the companies involved for support, just come to Remote Central.

Rob

Rob, sorry I dragged you into this, did not know the JP-1 came out after you bought your Pronto. But I just felt that some of the stuff that Jim said needed to be rebutted. He made it sound that a OFA with JP-1 will be better at IR then a Pronto.

Agreed.


Almost agree. How often is the firmware updates? With a modem upgradeable ofa a needed upgrade can be gotten almost daily. With JP-1, it can be added within a matter of minutes.


I don't know that hex manipulation is all that easy. I do know that thru KM, KM does the hex work. I just have to enter either OBC's or EFC's 000-255 and KM does the rest. I suspect that as to finding a hidden discrete would be about equally time consuming, maybe a slight edge to the pronto. But, then does the added 450.00 expense justify that minute edge? In my book, it doesn't. I'd rather take that 450 and get me a cd burnerand a dvd player, and have some cash left over; or that set of speakers I've been wanting for years; or that new pistol I've been wanting, but just can't seem to justify putting out for. Damn sure aren't gonna blow it on any remote when my 10.00 1994 (ok, 20.00 with the cable) remote will do all I need it to, and more.
Jim

not that often, but how often do you upgrade your remote :-), but don't forget that there is not only the official firmware upgrades but also the file section on this site.


there are tools for the Pronto as well, and hex code manipulation (for the Pronto IR forma) is very easy


1) if you paid 450 more then a OFA for a Pronto (not a pro) then I have some land in Florida for you to buy :-) the going rate of a NEW Pronto is under 300 and near 200. Plus he was talking about the NEO, and it is going for around 160.

2) that is not what the discussion was all about. The discussion was purely is the Pronto (IR wise) as customizable as a good OFA.


that is a personal decision. And one each one of us has to make. You might like using your OFA. I needed or wanted something that has timers, and a touch screen.

touchscreen? I wouldn't have a touchscreen if you gave it to me; not even good for a paperweight. Didn't take me long to figure out where my buttons ar, can manipulate them in the dark wearing a hood.

Timers? Sure don't need any timers either. I can program my vcr to auto-record any movie I mite want to. Could even use the digital timer with 6 events I already have If I needed to. Don't need my stereo to turn itself on when I'm not home, nobody there to hear it anyway. Heck, bitch the kid out for leavin lights on when not neccessary. Even the coffeemaker has it's own timer to make the coffee before I get up, no remote is gonna do that for me.

Don't have a pvr, wouldn't probably get one even if they were 50.00. damn sure wouldn't shell out no 160 for no silly remote even if it was gold plated and massaged my feet for me. Now, if it could cook dinner, and run down and get the mail for me, or run up and do the grocery shopping for me, I might reconsider.

Maybe you can justify dumping 160, or more for a remote, but there just isn't any way in hell I can. Heck, that would have paid for that cd recorder I wanted, and left me 40 bucks left over for some groceries. I guess it just has to do with what are values are, and what some things are "worth" to us. For me, I can just comfortably get along without some "features" you just need or gotta have.

I would have to say most any pronto is more customizeable than any OFA, if you want to talk about custom naming buttons, icons, etc. But is that something I "need", or "gotta have"? Nope. The only macro I "need" and use is to sumultaneously increase the volume in my 2 preamps; otherwise I don't really need a macro. I may get around to programming some, but I don't see it as a "gotta have". I'm perfectly capable of turning on the tv, then turning on the sat. receiver, wow, took three whole button presses. 3 more if I want to hear it through the stereo; I don't think I'll overexert myself and have a heart attack.

Thanks again for all of the information, guys.

It seems the CCF files on this site are divided into 2 groups: a Pronto & ProntoPro section, and a Pronto NEO & Marantz section. With a JP-1 cable, would I be able to copy commands from a CCF filein either section that contains my components to an OFA 8811 or 8910?

Also (my last question, I swear ;) ) how would I program a discrete into an OFA if all I have from this site is the several-hundred digit hex code? Does the PC software that interfaces with the JP-1 allow me to program that code to the OFA?

Again, thanks.