Well said, Mike. That is the jist of this whole thing. Cannot create a distribution stragey which will serve everyone. I also seem to believe that the audience on this forum is a special breed and rarely will be served by any manufacturers distribution strategies.

Dave

Hear, hear!

Simple fact is... if it wasn't for internet sales, I would not own a Philips TSU7000.

Not only because they are not available in my country (Australia!), but because the Marantz equiv is over twice the cost of me purchasing it from an internet retailer (who I see has already posted thoughts in this thread ;) ).

Maybe if Philips want to stop selling via the internet, they should also adopt a more reasonable price strategy... I know there are differences between these and PDAs (and the volumes made etc!) - but the price margin continues to widen. If Philips are not careful, the Pronto brand will end up being victim to any one of the numerous issues discussed by people previously in this thread. :/

Another point I forgot to mention earlier:

Dealers generally do not make significant contributions to innovation - they are too busy selling what they have. The real input come from those users willing to push the envelope. Those tend to be techie hobbyists. The Pronto NG forum has 6k threads and 34k posts. The RTI forum has 900 threads and 4K posts. Contrast the MX-3000 and the ProntoProNG contest entries that were submitted on Remote Central. Not to belittle the MX-3000 entries, but there aren't as many as Pronto, nor are most of them as good.

One could reasonably conclude that the more users there are, the more feedback there is, and the more producers will invest in improving their products. The number of users is almost always inversely proportional to price.

Robinson-Patman Act, Chinese Cloning, Espionage & "in shackles" with Martha...man I love you guys...for a second I wasn't sure I was in the right forum.

To satisfy the curious, this information was obtained in a very unique way...I talked to the Philips people at CEDIA and at their corporate office...imagine that.

During Cedia, I actually spent a lot of my time in the Philips booth whining and complaining about various things...one of which was Pronto Internet pricing & what they (Philips) were going to do about it. Seeing how the Philips booth was no larger than my daughters bedroom, my conversation was heard by all.

A gentleman named "Anthony" (who coincidentally "ran out of cards" when I asked him for one) approached me and we had a rather lengthy conversation. I remember him introducing himself as the marketing manager for Pronto in the U.S. He allowed me to vent and led me down the road via questions where he "hinted" that they were considering an internet ban & what I thought of that. Well, my statement was that I wanted my cake & be able to eat it too! I wanted protection for my margin, but yet I wanted to be able to buy it cheap and convenient via the internet.

Anthony stated that enthusiasts such as ourselves push the envelop and do not require help using new technologies (aka programming software for products like Pronto)...so when it comes down to it...the price & convenience is what we look for alas...the Internet.

He mentioned that as Pronto distribution has widened, especially the "direct to consumer" market (which is primarily driven by the internet), Philips has taken on a ton of costs (call center programming support, Products being returned with no defects...you know the old "equipment superior to operator" issues). He explained that Pronto is the only product that is sold "incomplete" or in other words needs custom programming to deliver a total end product to the customer. He said..."Pronto without customization is like a TV with no video source...nice to look at but overall usless in the end." He went on about some other marketing crap revolving around their "sense and stupidity" campaign...

When he refocused and continued his sermon to me, he explained that Philips is serious about wanting to return Pronto to its "proper" distribution, primarily through custom install markets. His example was the RC9800i (no PC required to program...basically if you can read, you can program it). He said that product was introduced specifically for the "direct to consumer" sales and that is why it would not be part of their internet ban...if they would implement one. He also hinted that there was some really neat stuff (new Pronto platform) coming next year and they needed to "shore things up" from a distribution point of view before that could happen. Big marketing talk...let's see if they stand behind it.

The other day I called Philips corporate office looking for Anthony because he promised to include me on their next beta test and I needed to give him some information he requested. After a number of phone transfers, I found out he was traveling and I ended up talking to a very nice girl that worked with him. I relayed her my information and happen to ask about the internet ban. She put me on hold for about 2 minutes and when she came back said that they had finalized the policy the day before.

So I too am split on their decision. On one hand, I have to agree and applaud the them for this move and at the same time cuss them out for taking away my ability to buy easy and cheap.

We shall see what happens.

Later...

P.S. Hopefully Mr. McGee can sleep better at night knowing that the information presented here is on the level and wasn't obtained "covertly". ; - )

InTraining, you are definitely in the right forum. It is the only way most of us have to communicate with Philips about Pronto issues. My understanding is that Philips' personnel read these forum posts religiously. As a Beta Tester, you will undoubtedly have other avenues of communication, but for the rest of us, this is it.

Philips could have a product/market strategy that offers dealers one set of benefits and users another. Computer hardware and software companies have been doing this for decades. Many of you may remember that Philips once tried to become a significant player in the computer industry. At the time, I was a professional industry analyst, and I believed that the reason it failed is because it did not understand how to segment the market. Deja vu re Pronto?

I recommend that Philips take a close look at Dell Computer's channel strategy. Dell has products for retail stores, Internet merchandisers, large corporations, and its own direct sales channel. It also sells refurbs direct and through alternate channels. The hardware is essentially the same for all channels, but pricing, support, features, etc. differ. A Pronto sells in the same price range as a fully operational PC and is similar to a PC in that it needs to be configured. I think the Dell channel model, well-executed, ought to work well for Pronto.

Listen up Philips - this Internet ban will alienate a whole segment of your market, namely those of us that have some programming skills but don't have access to retail stores or professional installers selling Prontos. I live in Asia and to date have purchased two Pronto Pros via the Internet. I am now considering upgrading my first (early model) Pronto - if this Internet ban goes ahead I will have to switch to another brand. DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!!

My local hi-fi retailer is no longer carrying the Prontos or Marantz. I no longer have a local retailer to buy them from unless one of the big names like Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. start selling these. But so far my local stores haven't. It will be a shame for Philips to alienate potential customers from Internet sales like this. I wouldn't see this so much as highend retailers trying to fatten margin so much as it would probably be more of an attempt to try to control faud and counterfeits. But I'm a newbie and a nobody so...

From the First post on this thread:


A guy you met @ Cedia has suddenly become a "finance friend". If you had stated the content below up front, I more than likely would not have even raised an eyebrow. You are indeed in the right forum. One last question. Have you gotten your "ankle bracelet" and your autographed Martha Stewart "Bars and Stripes" poster yet? LMAO

I finally programmed an MX3000. It feels cheesy. They should do what those clever chinese did when they made that $6 phone I bought at Long's Drugs: hot glue about eight ounces of steel inside so it feels like it's MADE out of something!

But I like the 3000 otherwise.



"Talking to a friend in Finance" is not the usual entree we have to discussing issues with people at Philips, or any company. That is why your source seemed to perhaps be on the verge of being in a leeetle bit of trouble....



Is this the Anthony who posts here?



So he is saying that lay people, civilians, are stupid and internet sales to stupid people are causing their expenses to increase. By the way, Philips gets the same profit on each unit, right? So their PER UNIT profit doesn't go down as the internet price goes down. Unless they are shooting themselves in the port by lowering prices that they charge to internet dealers. ASK YOUR FRIEND IN FINANCE ABOUT THAT ONE!


I guess he never heard of Universal, Lexicon, RTI, Crestron, AMX, Xantech, Niles...how many dozen did I forget?


Okay, they want to keep this out of the hands of stupids. Don't get pissed at me -- this is what he is saying!


Let's see now...it will be like the TSU3000: another new platform with defective software and bugs aplenty. Or maybe like the Mzrantz 5400, with software that had online help...that did not exist for at least a year.


Personal rant: a very nice girl WHO worked with him. THAT refers to objects, not people!


You want to maintain your margin but get it cheap on the internet? Are you a dealer who refuses to sell to himself, or a dealer who thinks wholesale is not good enough? If you are not a dealer, why did you say "margin?"


Oh, yeah, this reminds me: I am on this forum now mostly out of nostalgia. Since Marantz decided that I had to carry their entire line to be able to get their remotes, I will no longer deal with them. If the new Prontos are internet footballs, they can go suck my fully configured DB-25 serial port! My first comment mentioned that I programmed my first MX3000, and that is thanks to Marantz. I have also done an 850 and the RTIs are the next ones TO REPLACE THE PRONTO TYPE REMOTES in my sales and programming.

AndynBec, you think someone from Philips is going to fly down there and beat you up if you publish your email address? How am I supposed to contact you privately to tell you I will try to help you out with your situation? They minge the email addresses -- okay, munge -- so they can't be harvested and fill your inbox. Give it a shot.


Yeah, but you have no excuse; you are not in Australia. I first heard of these from the installation company I work with, and that is the crowd to find. Custom installers. I am sure there are multiple installers in your area who would rather sell you a whole new system but will surely tolerate only selling you a remote and programming it.



Yeah, but at the start he said


That is two separate paragraphs for two discussion locations for two different types of information. Nowhere does he say that anyone he met at CEDIA works in Finance, is now his friend and told him some stuff.

This message was edited by Ernie Bornn-Gilman on 09/25/05 01:19 ET.

Ok, I have to respond.

I think it would be a good idea for Phillips to only sell to custom installers. I see too many posts from newbies having problems with "faulty remotes" when their configuration is corrupt.

Let's say if I was in the market for a high end remote and Through my search ended up on this forum. Seeing all the posts for help might shy me away from purchasing a new TSU7000.

Or, for another example, I, the average educated consumer, decide to buy a TSU7000 and program it myself for many red eyed nights and finaly figured out how to get it to sort of work my cable box. I invite my friends over for the big game and show off my system with my new remote I bought from the cheapest internet company.Now I get up to fix some refreshments and my friends get a look at the remote. They can't get it to do anything, my graphics are a mess, and it seems to my friends that I wasted my $700 dollars on this P.O.S. and Phillips is not the remote to buy for their systems.

Now lets say this same customer decides to purchase the same TSU7000 from a custom installations company like the one I currently work for. We have spent thousands of hours researching the perfect configuration that is graphicaly ergonomic (priority buttons placed for thumb use), programmed with all the proper discrete codes from our database, is capable of completely re-aligning the system with a touch of a button (all off), and easy enough to be used by even the most tech-challenged inlaws. .

Now the client has friends over and he is able to show off this masterpeice to all his friends with confidence. Yeah, he paid $1000 dollars for it, but it works EVERY time. When he shows off the channel shortcuts and the cable music macro's everyone is jealous. The Philips Pronto is the remote to get!

We use the Pronto for all our non Crestron needs. It is the corner stone of our buisiness. We were a part of the Beta tests with Phillips because the product means that much to us. Since the Pronto's first appearence, we have sold as many of them as there are current posts on this forum. We go through about 3-6 a week (color NG) and every home theater estimate under $15,000 has one speced in.

For Phillips to remove this remote from the internet is a good sign that they are trying to take the remote to a new level. Yes, it is up to the installer to keep up with their end of the deal providing reliable remotes as well. We take this responsibility seriously.

I have seen many clients balk at me for proposing a $1,000 remote, but not one has said they are not able to work their system with it.

I for one took the internet ban as good news.

WOW! I just saved a bunch of time and money on my Pronto Posting efforts. I no longer have to answer any "nostalgic" questions from Ernie.

Ernie, by the way, yes there were 2 paragraphs but the sentence that sent me railing included "finance friend at Philips". So whether one paragraph or 2, the "at Philips" connected both for me.

Lyndel

I know I ought to keep my big keyboard shut, but I can't help jumping in.

Each of you speaks from a narrow perspective, essentially representing self-interest. In my opinion, what we all need to do is to try and convince Philips - and the other remote companies - to come up with sales/product policies that address the entire market consituency without alienating one segment in order to pander to another.

Grego, lots of people actually enjoy those red-eyed nights, and some of them even manage to come up with reliable and gorgeous configurations. If you don't believe it, check out the contest entries. dbottoms, some "highend retailers" may actually want to provide a useful service to their customers in addition to "fattening margins."

I think everyone on this forum who has thought about the future will agree that today's fancy remote controls will evolve into appliances that everyone can afford and customize - just like PDAs and cell phones today. Standards will emerge that will eliminate the need for a Ph. D. in order to figure out how to control a fan. Software will be self-configuring. etc., etc. When this happens, these devices will be sold by the tens of millions - just like cell phones. Daniel Tonks will have to buy a much bigger server to handle three orders of magnitude more hits on Remote Central. I believe the industry needs policies in place that support the long view.

Let's take a vote. Let's say you have a million dollars to invest. Which remote control company's stock would you buy? I'll start the ball rolling:

I wouldn't put a nickel into any of the names currently promoting highend remote controls. My take is that Philips, UEI, URC, Sony, Crestron, etc. will continue to fight over the 1% bleeding edge of the market, while leaving the other 99% for companies like Microsoft? and Apple?.

Let's not forget that, in an indirect way, Microsoft and Apple have tried their hand at remotes. Look at the Take Control (Microsoft) and CORE (by Apple co-founder).

Yeah, I know those products aren't what either would produce today, especially Apple, but your particular choice of companies brought these tidbits to mind. :-)

I am reminded of IBM in its heyday. Although it arguably had the finest industrial research organization in the world, it never productized its research until it was confident that 1) the market was big enough to be interesting to the world's second largest technology company (AT&T was bigger), and 2) it could reasonably expect to gain and maintain a dominant market share so that it could effectively control pricing, thereby ensuring adequate profitability.

Microsoft or some other big technology company will get into this market when it perceives that conditions 1) and 2) can be met.