Big Papa, most times I would agree with what you said, but Pilgrim knew there was a lot of unhappy people posting about URC and the way he chose to respond was like dumping gas on a fire waiting to explode. The extra exlamation points, the condescending tone, the car analogy, etc. was needlessy provoking a response in a highly stressful thread. YMMV. Would it have turned ugly regardless of what Pilgrim said, of course it would have so I am not blaming him for starting it, but I was just responding to his declaration in this thread that he never said the "nyah, nyah, nyah" thing. Like I said, in most cases that would not be inflamatory, but if you go read that post in its context it is definitely the igniting point. In retrospect I wish I never would have said it was the first inflamatory post because I wasn't trying to assign blame for who started it, just wanted to point out that maybe he wasn't as innocent in this pointless argument between CI's and DIYers as he posted above.

That's pilgram's writing style, the exclamation points.

It sure seems that some people here are easily antagonized, and any comments that may or may not be antagonism are deemed antagonistic. I think some people here need a time out, take a 'thread vacation' or something, have a drink.

Either way, back to the thread, URC seems to get all the blame here, yet there's little if any blame sent the way of the unathorized sellers and seedy internet guys.

Or to take another look at it, unathorized sellers and seedy internet guys seems to get all the blame here from CI's, yet there's little if any blame sent the way of the URC for allowing these sales to continue for years.

Actually, I see CI's giving URC some flack for the handling of the current situation, although long term it's a move in the right direction. They haven't been given a free pass.

URC's supply chain isn't two level either, as it seems some people think. I appears some think that if a seller is unauthorized, URC just doesn't sell to them, therefore URC's fault, not the unauthorized seller. This is overly simplistic.

If had been that simple, none of today's events would be happening.

"URC's supply chain isn't two level either, as it seems some people think. I appears some think that if a seller is unauthorized, URC just doesn't sell to them, therefore URC's fault, not the unauthorized seller. This is overly simplistic."

I agree.All the unauthorized sellers and ebayers could not have stolen the remotes they sell.URC or an authorized dealer was sending them remotes,yet URC punishes the end user for purchasing them.Um,ok.

Personally I don't believe this is a step in the right direction, as a consumer I would like to see these remotes available from more sources, with better prices because of price competition. This would bring these remotes to a much larger market and could greatly benefit the maker (URC) with a much greater demand. I think limiting the sales to custom installers is a big mistake URC should invest a little more in their customer service instead of relying on others for tech support, after all these remotes are really not that complicated to program. URC should think about dropping the sales plan they have now and get these remotes out to the mass market.

Also I do not have any bad feelings toward the "unauthorized" sellers most are honest very good businesses, sure there may be a few who are not, there are also bad "authorized" sellers, personally I have not heard of anyone having any problems from any of these sellers. It was URC that created the problems, both with their uncontrolled distribution, poor policies for distribution and now poor policies for their customers.

As a consumer of course you would feel this way, but there are issues you have to consider. Many companies have gone from a CI oriented product to a mass merchandising product, the same outcome almost always happens.....the product, and the company, suffers in the long run. Quality goes down, which leads to less customers, which leads to the death of a company, or at the very least takes years to recoup from. Don't believe me, look at Nakamichi, Luxman, or Alpine.

Nakamichi was a very high end company that branched out to the masses (through Circuit City if I remember correctly). They couldn't supply enough product without making some sacrifices, quality. The products are now sold only overseas.

Luxman's fate was intertwined with Alpine's. Alpine bought out Luxman, then they sold their products to anyone who wanted it and again, the company suffered. They've spent awhile bringing their name back into high end car audio (with the F1 equipment). Luxman on the other hand suffered the same fate as Nakamichi, only sold overseas.

When companies get greedy, or concentrate only on pricing, they fail.

Well I disagree, I have no need for a CI and prefer to keep it that way, I guess you think all products should be sold only this way? CI's would love to have a monopoly and profit greatly. URC does not need to be greedy or concentrate only on pricing, they need to concentrate on making great remotes and STOP worrying about WHO is selling them for how much. As long as URC makes their share it does not matter if a retailer decides he only needs one cent for profit or even wants to take a loss.

These are remotes, not some highly specialized equipment, fact is the higher end models are really easier to program than most low end consumer models. CI's need to offer their services to those who need them and stop trying to monopolize the market to include those who don't.

They are pretty high tech devices, actually. With all they do in the way they do it, I think they are as highly specialized as your speakers, your disc player. Each took a ton of engineering and product development to bring to market. Marginalizing them I believe is not really accurate. Now if you mean the little $10 things at the drug store...

Most people still don't fundamentally understand what an 'input' is on a TV.

Most people who purchase a programmable remote won't have any idea of what a 'discrete' is until they've been working on their system for a while.

Then, an even smaller minority, are people like you Rich Guy. You'll still be able to get the more advanced programmable remotes, but I think MX850's should be kept out of the hands of people who don't understand what discretes are. In the end, it will be better for all parties. All the competent DIYers (who weren't the problem) will merely have to get them from different channels, and pay more.

There is a reason for authorised dealers and it is NOT so they can screw you for extra cash.
very rarely does someone buy just a remote in a AV system.it is normally along with other items/services which i would guess a discount would be applied.
Authorised dealers support you if anything goes wrong the manufacturer knows this and in turn supports its authorised dealers.
This is not new ,strange or limited to remote controls it applies to most consumer products.
After sorting out many jobs from people who bought product (not remotes but you get the idea )cheaper from dealers who went bust
then offered NO support.

I guess that if you bought a remote cheap from e bay etc and you did have a problem and you talked to a Authorised CI about your problem (in a friendly manner without a demanding attitude)that you would get help and advise ,after all you are a potential customer of the future and no business turns that down.

If something has a overly cheap price there is usually a reason for it and this has been said before you can end up paying more in the end.

Why do you feel that CIs are such a terrible thing? You missed my point. I wasn't saying that I believe DIYs should not be able to buy and program their own remotes, I was commenting on your statement that URC should try to get their remotes sold through as many channels as possible.

I sell B&W speakers. B&W only sells through high end retailers, they don't sell through distribution or to mass market. If somebody comes in and wants to buy a pair of in-wall speakers and put them in themselves, I gladly let them do it. B&W is one of the most highly-regarded companies out there. They don't overextend themselves, and because of this they have the ability to have great R&D and make huge improvements in their products or offer more products; which is better for the consumer in the long run. This is what I would rather see from URC.

It's not about screwing the end user, I would much rather help them and know they will be back. So please, stop being so negative about CIs because the majority of us are very helpful, friendly people.

Matt

This is what instructions are for, it is not a complicated thing to learn about discretes, yes some people will not realize the full potential of their remote, others may take a little learning, computers are by far a more complex thing to learn yet most people buy these on their own and learn from there. As I said let the buyer decide if they want or need to shop from an installer, let them also decide if they want to shop for price both have their markets so stop forcing yours on us when we want to decide.

Complicated to design yes, high tech design yes, easy to program yes. An mx 850 takes a little learning to understand then once the concept is learned it is easier to program than those $10 remotes at the drug store, especially for a complicated system.

Absolutely! I was just noting the comment of "it's only a remote" which kind of makes one of these dandy high tech controllers seem a lot less than they are. Truly they are great pieces of technology in a handheld package. Equating them with the remote that came with someone's Funai TV doesn't do them justice.