I personaly love the car brand Jaguar. I am always on a few different Jaguar web forums and stuff like that, you know like we do here for remote controls and that. the cars are expensive, more than other cars. there are cheaper cars out there, and there are more expensive cars out there, but for the most part a Jaguar is an expensive car. agreed?


if people think the Jaguar XJ12 is too expensive, they dont buy one. they don't go on Jag forums and complain about how this car or that is better and less expensive, or hey Jaguar, youd seel more cars if they were cheaper. the item is offered at a price and people make the deicision to buy it or not. but you just dont hear people always yelling at the company that the price is too high and what the hell are they thinking and all that.


if you don't want to buy the MX-700 at the price you see, don't. i have news for you: the price is NOT too high for a lot of people. they buy the remtoe. there are remotes that cost (street price) a thousand dollars or more. why not go to THAT forum and complain about the price? you just see that the company that sells the MX-700 ALSO sells a similarly shaped reamote that's a lot cheaper. it's a different remote, in every way except the shape. which is why I want one!! A thousand dollars is too much for a remote for me, so I don't consider those. Five hundred smackers is a lot, but i think I could swing it. I want to pay as little as possible, and I see the remtoe out there right now for what, three fifty or so, and I consider that a good price. That's more than a quarter off the list price. the last time I saw a price that good at brick and mortar store it was open box and missing the power cord. (okay exagerating).

so you have your opinoin on the MX-700, and you dont want them to price fix. but lots of companies do it. bose is the biggest Id bet. there are lots of remotes out there. at all different prices and features and shapes and all that. stop complaining and buy one at a price you can live with. if you think one is too expensive, move on and buy a different remote. do you think that the manufacturer of the MX-700 says to themselves, hey we could sell this for $50 but let's sell for $500 instead and screw everyone? in my estimation is costs a lot of money to design and build a remote like this, right they are entitled to ask any damn price they want. pay it or move on. the manufacturer will sell you a remote direct for $500, buy it there. or let a dealer use their quantity purchase to get you a better price/.


I wish it was cheaper too but its not. neither is the XJ12. So buy a Camry if it costs too mucch, right

Jaguars are status symbols. MX-700's are not.

It's a free web site - HTM is free to set any price they want, and people are just as free to complain about it.

IMHO, HTM should be getting a message from this forum - there are loyal customers who strongly want to buy the MX-700 or a similar product from HTM, if only HTM would be prepared to sell to the hobbyist market directly instead of only selling to installers, with a margin built-in for custom programming.


This message was edited by David Harrison on 11/04/02 21:22.55.

the $120 MX-500 can do anything someone needs it to do. people buy the MX-700 as a luxury, right

as for the people you talked about, they probably buy them right now from the dealers who support this forum so well

What if Jaguar made a car called the XJ10 that looked and performed exactly like the XJ12 except that it had a slightly different navigation system.

Now what if Jaguar sold the XJ12 for twice or more the price of the XJ10 even though they obviously were not really very different. Add to that that Jaguar would not sell you the XJ12 because you didn't belong to a special private club.

Would you still think that this is a good thing?

Not a bad analogy Free, except that it's the dealers that need to be in a special club to get the product. The manufacturer will sell to anybody, if it's at their price.

The odd thing is that with the exception of their direct sales, HTM makes the same amount on their sales to dealers and distributors no matter what the product's ultimately sold for. The only way they make more money is to sell more product, but by maintaining a minimum sales price that's too high, they sell less. Apparently, keeping in the good graces of custom installers is more important than making money by selling more product. Must be a privately held company. ;-)

I own the MX-500 and the MX-700. Saying it's just the navigation system that's different is mistating the facts.

Once you've had an MX-700, you wouldn't go back to an MX-500. Just the "macro on every key" design makes it a different remote altogether.

... Greg

Yes, stop complaining and contact your state Attorney General.

The argument HTM makes for "custom installers" sounds very much like the music industries loss in a recent MAP "minimum-advertised pricing" case.

From "States settle CD price-fixing case" USA TODAY, 10/01/02

"Previously, the companies said that MAP was needed to protect independent music retailers from rising competition from discount chains such as Wal-Mart, Circuit City and Best Buy. They had slashed CD prices, below cost in some cases, in the hope that once consumers were in their stores they would buy other, more expensive products."

See also [Link: napaa.org]. "...these cases brought by the FTC do not change the existing law concerning the use of MAP in co-op advertising. Namely, a manufacturer can legally require that MAP be used in advertising done by retailers provided (1) such requirement is limited to co-operative advertising that is paid for in whole or in part by the manufacturer, (2) the retailer is not required to adhere to the MAP when using its own funds to advertise the manufacturer’s product, and (3) the retailer is not forced to sell the manufacturer’s products at the prices fixed by the manufacturer or prohibited from selling at discount prices. Mr. Guttman pointed out that once the retailer purchases the manufacturer’s product, it has the right to advertise and sell the manufacturer’s product at any price it wishes. "


Note that MAP itself is not illegal, but it has to be voluntary...
"MAP is a voluntarily agreement a retailer enters into with a supplier. According to the agreement, which varies in details from vendor to vendor, the retailer can sell an item for any price they wish, but may not advertise the item for an amount less than the Minimum Advertised Price."


AND, AND, AND, the retailer can still sell an item for any price they wish.

So, for those of you faulting Worthington (tester, GregoriusM), it is actually HTM that is breaking the law by not allowing Worthington, BlueDo, etc... to sell the MX-700 for whatever price they wish.

FWIW, if you live in FL, NY, or CA, your Attorney General will probably be very willing to look into this matter. These three states have been very aggressive in similar cases.

I really hope HTM is listening.

I also have the MX-500 and MX-700 and I HAVE gone back to the MX-500. The MX-700 has superior macro capabilities but the MX-500 has a superior transport button layout, which for me makes it a better remote.

KMB -- You are absolutely correct. I suspect AG Spitzer (NY) will be quite interested in the practices of HTM - a NY based company.

Craig

Gotcha, lhl12!

It is stated in the U.S. Constitution, or at least it is implied, that I should be able to buy whatever I want at what I consider a reasonable price, regardless of my lack of information and knowledge about what it takes to create the product and what the provider of the product needs to charge in order to make a suitable profit and stay solvent.

It is a universal rule that selling more product at a price I consider reasonable will be profit enough.

:-)

DJ Garcia -- I do not think anyone was implying that we had the right to buy a product at whatever price we wanted. But, most states do offer consumer protection laws to keep companies from price fixing -which is what HTM is doing when they tell Worthington, Bluedo, or any reseller that the price of the product must be set at $X.

HP fell into the same trap. For a very long time, HP would cut off any vendor that sold below MSRP (even Internet sites such as CDW). Notice now that Staples, Office Depot, etc... still sell at the MSRP, but offer store coupons in order to comply with the MAP policy of HP. They can sell at whatever price they want, but in order to receive advertising funds from HP, they cannot advertise the price below the MAP set by HP.

All that to say this... the RESELLER has the right to set the price at whatever they want. If the cost to the reseller from HTM is $250, the resellers HAVE THE RIGHT to sell the product for $1.00 or $5,000 (or even give it away) as long as they are not 'illegally dumping' the product. If HTM cuts off a dealer for selling below a set price point, HTM is breaking the consumer protection laws of almost every state and several federal laws.

To reiterate, it is the reseller that has the legal right to set the price, not HTM and not the consumer.

And to add one more point - when *every* online retailer raises the price to list, it's clear that something funny has happened.

It certainly is clear that the manufacturer told them to raise the price "or else". Which I suppose is their prerogative. But I still think it may be illegal for them to effectively (as proven by these price increases) price fix. Someone should research the verbage of the law in question and we'll know for certain if they're breaking it!