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Topic:
Whats the Best Audio Format for HD-DVD's?
This thread has 33 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 30.
Post 16 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 11:28
bookaroni
Long Time Member
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On May 22, 2007 at 11:05, Stealth X said...
you can see my reciever in my sig, bitstream it is for
me then! thanks alot for the info bookaroni.

Your sig is full of Pioneer Elite stuff. Very nice. Your receiver should do fine with your DVD player set to bitstream.

Sidenote:
I just purchased the Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1 1080p plasma monitor. And just last week had it ISF calibrated. This display far surpasses any TV I have previously owned.
And I've had a Pioneer Elite CLD-97 Laserdisc player for years.
Gotta love the Elite line!
Post 17 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 15:02
erock1
Long Time Member
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On May 22, 2007 at 10:24, bookaroni said...

PCM is a digital form of an analog signal. Straight
PCM uses a high bitrate. So it is usually compressed.
If compressed too much it will be lossy for sure.

Where are you getting this information from? PCM is UNCOMPRESSED period! Even if the studio mastered a movie at 24/48 (that's 24 bit depth / 48,000 sample rate) and downconverted it (which most do) to 16/48, you would have lower fidelity audio but not compressed.

I believe your confusion lies in the difference between fidelity and compression. Rather than downgrade the 24/48 master audio to lower 16/48 fidelity, some studios have chosen to losslessly pack or "zip" these audio masters with DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD. Once unpacked or "unzipped" by a player or HDMI 1.3 receiver, the resulting output is a 24/48 LPCM track that is bit-for-bit identical to the original studio master.


The main reason to use PCM is because your receiver
has no decoding capability. And that would be a pretty
old receiver as most receivers have some sort of decoding
capability. Such as Dolby Digital or DTS. So if your receiver
is Pro Logic, then yes use PCM.

Unless I'm not understanding something in your explanation, again your information isn't quite correct. We're talking about audio from HD-DVDs. The reason for using an uncompressed PCM audio stream is to allow your HD DVD player to decode the HD audio, convert it to PCM and pass it to your receiver via multi-channel analog or multi-channel on HDMI (1.1, 1.2 or 1.2a).

No offense meant, but Wkipedia isn't a very reputable source. Any article that is published on Wikipedia can be edited by anyone, anytime. Most elementary schools teach their students not to use Wikipedia as a research source.
Post 18 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 15:50
OTAHD
Super Member
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4,679
On May 21, 2007 at 11:48, bookaroni said...
TOSLINK (and SPDIF) cannot carry TrueHD at all, due to
insufficient bitrate-capacity.
This was copied from here:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org]

Sorry to bring this up, but I'm suprised that Toslink can't carry TrueHD. It must be due to the design somehow. A fibre optic cable of that size can carry a much higher bitrate than needed in itself. It must be something to due with the design of the interface itself. Perhaps someone can elaborate more?
LET'S GO BUFFALO!!!
Post 19 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 15:51
bookaroni
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On May 22, 2007 at 15:02, erock1 said...
Where are you getting this information from? PCM is UNCOMPRESSED
period! Even if the studio mastered a movie at 24/48 (that's
24 bit depth / 48,000 sample rate) and downconverted it
(which most do) to 16/48, you would have lower fidelity
audio but not compressed.


I believe your confusion lies in the difference between
fidelity and compression. Rather than downgrade the 24/48
master audio to lower 16/48 fidelity, some studios have
chosen to losslessly pack or "zip" these audio masters
with DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD. Once unpacked or "unzipped"
by a player or HDMI 1.3 receiver, the resulting output
is a 24/48 LPCM track that is bit-for-bit identical to
the original studio master.

Unless I'm not understanding something in your explanation,
again your information isn't quite correct. We're talking
about audio from HD-DVDs. The reason for using an uncompressed
PCM audio stream is to allow your HD DVD player to decode
the HD audio, convert it to PCM and pass it to your receiver
via multi-channel analog or multi-channel on HDMI (1.1,
1.2 or 1.2a).

No offense meant, but Wkipedia isn't a very reputable
source. Any article that is published on Wikipedia can
be edited by anyone, anytime. Most elementary schools
teach their students not to use Wikipedia as a research
source.

I admit I did get some of my info from Wikpedia. Sorry.
But the part about PCM being lossless only applies to HD-DVD and Blu-ray, doesn't it?

Anyway, I have obviously gone past my expertise of knowledge. But I will try to limit myself from now on. Sorry if I led anyone astray.
I still think Stealth X should use Bitstream, not PCM. Was I at least right about that?
My system does not work properly using PCM on an optical cable. I have no HDMI anything.
Now say I have a standard DVD player hooked up, not a hi def player. Would a PCM signal still be losless? Or is that a whole different story.
Post 20 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 15:56
bookaroni
Long Time Member
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Posts:
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458
On May 22, 2007 at 15:50, OTAHD said...
Sorry to bring this up, but I'm suprised that Toslink
can't carry TrueHD. It must be due to the design somehow.
A fibre optic cable of that size can carry a much higher
bitrate than needed in itself. It must be something to
due with the design of the interface itself. Perhaps
someone can elaborate more?

It is my understanding that you need at least HDMI 1.3 to send across an undecoded bitstream for external decoding for the HD audio formats. I have read this in other forums as well as Wikpedia. Bu I have been told not to rely on Wikpedia. So maybe someone else cay confirm or deny my assumption.
Post 21 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 17:05
DBrown
Founding Member
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1,049
I found this at: [Link: hdmi.org]

Q. Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS
Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or Blu-ray players?

No. The Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS-HD Master
Audio can be decoded by the playback device into multi-channel
Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) digital audio streams, which is an | audio format standard that can be sent over any version of
HDMI. In fact, all versions of HDMI can support up to 8
channels of PCM audio at 192kHz, 24 bits per sample.

To do this, consumers should ensure that their playback device
(such as HD-DVD or Blu-ray player) is capable of decoding
these new lossless Dolby & DTS audio formats into the PCM
format on the HDMI output, and that the audio device (such as | an A/V receiver) is capable of receiving multi-channel PCM
audio over the HDMI inputs. Consult your user manual/product | specification sheet to determine whether your device supports
such PCM capabilities (we believe that nearly all HD-DVD and
Blu-ray players will, but users should confirm this). Devices that
support HDMI v1.3 and higher may also offer the option to
transport the high definition audio formats as a compressed,
encoded stream over HDMI so that the decoding function can be
performed by the A/V receiver (whereas the above transport | method has the playback device performing the decoding).
Post 22 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 17:05
erock1
Long Time Member
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218
On May 22, 2007 at 15:56, bookaroni said...
It is my understanding that you need at least HDMI 1.3
to send across an undecoded bitstream for external decoding
for the HD audio formats. I have read this in other forums
as well as Wikpedia. Bu I have been told not to rely on
Wikpedia. So maybe someone else cay confirm or deny my
assumption.

*Edited:
Yes you would need HDMI 1.3 to carry "undecoded" HD (TrueHD, DTS-HD, etc.) audio to an HDMI 1.3 receiver equipped with the proper codecs to decode.

Below are excerpts from "reputable" sources and links to full articles & white papers that will confirm that HDMI 1.1, 1.2 & 1.2a will carry multi-channel audio. This is a proven fact. I suggest that you re-read

1: From HDTV Magazine: "In September 2005, Dolby announced that A/V receivers capable of processing PCM over their HDMI 1.1 inputs should also be able to have sufficient bandwidth to accept the HD video and the PCM multi-channel audio decoded by the Hi-def DVD player."
FULL ART: [Link: hdtvmagazine.com]

2: From the HDMI Org:
Q. Do I need v1.3 HDMI to hear the new Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master HD audio content on HD-DVD or Blu-ray players?

No. The Dolby TrueHD, Dolby Digital Plus, and DTS-HD Master Audio can be decoded by the playback device into multi-channel Pulse Code Modulation (PCM) digital audio streams, which is an audio format standard that can be sent over any version of HDMI. In fact, all versions of HDMI can support up to 8 channels of PCM audio at 192kHz, 24 bits per sample.

Full Art: [Link: hdmi.org]

3: From DTS Audio, A consumer White Paper on DTS-HD-Audio:
"DTS-HD Master Audio and High Resolution Audio via HDMI 1.1 or 1.2* Connection using a a high Definition Player with DTS-HD Master Audio Decoder to Current AV Receiver You can enjoy DTS-HD Master Audio and DTS-HD High Resolution Audio if you have a new Blu-ray Disc or HD DVD player with a DTS-HD Audio decoder built into the player. The audio is decoded inside the player and passed to the receiver in two different ways, a single HDMI cable or multichannel analog connections. The high definition player outputs DTS-HD Master Audio or DTS-HD High Resolution Audio as an uncompressed 6 to 8 channel linear PCM digital audio stream. You need a player with a built-in DTS-HD Master Audio decoder, and both player and AV Receiver must have HDMI version 1.1 or 1.2* outputs/inputs."

Full White paper: [Link: dts.com]

I can go on and on but I think you'll agree that the above 3 are sufficient. Anyone here that has a good knowledge of HDMI and audio will agree.

Last edited by erock1 on May 22, 2007 18:44.
Post 23 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 18:32
bookaroni
Long Time Member
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458
Thanks for the links. I will read up on it when I get a chance.
Between my last post and now I just watched and listened to the Matrix as I have never before experienced. My Toshiba HD XA-2 has 6 analog cables running to my Yamaha DSP-A1. All this is hooked up to my recently purchased (and ISF calibrated) Pioneer Elite Pro-FHD-1 1080p 50" plasma. Dolby TrueHD never sounded better. And the picture never looked better either. HDMI? I don't need no stinking HDMI!
Post 24 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 18:51
erock1
Long Time Member
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218
On May 22, 2007 at 18:32, bookaroni said...
Thanks for the links. I will read up on it when I get
a chance.
Dolby TrueHD never sounded better. And the picture never
looked better either. HDMI? I don't need no stinking HDMI!

No HDMI? What are you using to feed video to that beautiful 50" plasma, RCA composite LOL
Post 25 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 20:11
bookaroni
Long Time Member
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458
On May 22, 2007 at 18:51, erock1 said...
No HDMI? What are you using to feed video to that beautiful
50" plasma, RCA composite LOL

Woops. I meant no HDMI on my receiver for the awesome (uncompressed) audio. I do have an HDMI cable from the Toshiba XA-2 to the Pioneer Elite. The ISF technician also calibrated the XA-2.
Since you obviously know a lot more than I do about this stuff let me ask a question about HDMI cables. Say I have a 1.3 receiver (don't exist yet) and a 1.3 HD-DVD player (which I have). I am starting to see HDMI cable ads stating their cable is an HDMI 1.3 cable. Is this hype?
Post 26 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 20:20
Anthony
Ultimate Member
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Posts:
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28,894
the cable is the same, it is the chips in the devices that are different
...
Post 27 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 22:24
erock1
Long Time Member
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218
On May 22, 2007 at 20:11, bookaroni said...
Say| I have a 1.3 receiver (don't exist yet) and a 1.3 HD-DVD
player (which I have). I am starting to see HDMI cable
ads stating their cable is an HDMI 1.3 cable. Is this
hype?

Good question and a tricky one to answer without unleashing a lot of "are you nuts" responses. I'll try to answer the question to the best of my understanding of the HDMI spec and requirements.

IMHO, I don't think there really is a difference but it is a crap shoot. Not so much with audio but with video (1080p & deep color). With that said, here's the techy info:

HDMI licensing requirements really only say that cables must be intra-pair skew. In other words, the pairs of wires within the cable must be the same. Not the different pairs (A pair & B pair) but the wires within the same pair (A1 & A2) must not be substantially different. The HDMI spec from 1.0 and up required that HDMI cables be "able" to support speeds up tp 165MHz. With the new increased speeds that 1.3 needs to carry, HDMI cables need to be "verified" for 165 MHz and "support" up to 340MHz. HDMI has indicated that they believe any HDMI cable verified to support 165MHz will pass the test for 340MHz. This has to do with "equalizer technology" requiring componments (HDTVs, etc) to have the technology enabled for speeds above 165MHz. Currently, the majority of cables are what is called "category 1" cable, verified to pass 720p/1080i. For a cable to be verifed for 1080p and "deep color" it must be "catagory 2" cable.

The bottom line again, IMHO, it's a crap shoot if you use HDMI cables that are not verified as "catagory 2" that it will carry 1080p video. More than likely it will but than again, I'm sure you've heard the stories of the guy that spent $300+ on a HDMI cable that wouldn't carry a 1080p signal from his new HD or Blu-Ray DVD player to his 1080p HDTV.
Post 28 made on Tuesday May 22, 2007 at 23:29
bookaroni
Long Time Member
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458
Erock1,
Thanks for taking the time to reply. I thought it might be a silly question. But maybe not. No, I did not hear about the guy that spent $300+ on a HDMI cable that wouldn't carry a 1080p signal. Just glad it wasn't me.
Another thing I have read a lot-
Many people say don't go buy an expensive HDMI cable. An inexpensive (cheap) one will work just the same. That I never believed. With that said I have been thinking of dropping about $160 on a 2 meter cable made by Wireworld. Solid build and good reviews.
I'm past needing Deep Color as my Elite has no HDMI 1.3. And since I just bought it I won't be replacing it anytime soon.
But after spending $6200 for the Plasma and $900 for the HD-DVD player this is no time to get a cheap cable.
So Category 2 and verified to support 165MHz. I will make sure before I purchase. I did go to Wireworld's website and found nothing about either of these two points. But since there is a 2 after the series 5 makes me think the Silver Starlight 5 2 that the 2 might stand for category 2.
http://www.wireworldcable.com/

And the review says nothing either:
[Link: hometheaterhifi.com]

But it does mention thje connector is the sturdiest they have tested so far. Which I think means a lot as I have heard a lot about sloppy connectors.
Again, thanks for all your help.

Bruce
Post 29 made on Wednesday May 23, 2007 at 06:09
erock1
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On May 22, 2007 at 23:29, bookaroni said...
| So Category 2 and verified to support 165MHz. I will
make sure before I purchase. I did go to Wireworld's website
and found nothing about either of these two points. But
since there is a 2 after the series 5 makes me think the
Silver Starlight 5 2 that the 2 might stand for category
2.
http://www.wireworldcable.com/

And the review says nothing either:
[Link: hometheaterhifi.com]

But it does mention thje connector is the sturdiest they
have tested so far. Which I think means a lot as I have
heard a lot about sloppy connectors.
Again, thanks for all your help.

Bruce

Bruce,
Just so you know, the 2 to the right, above the 5 indicates 5 squared, like in 5X5. That's how the name is pronounced, "5 Squared". I got that from a WireWorld press release for their HDMI cables.
I think that as long as a manufacturer indicates that it will carry a 1080p signal, that would be good enough. I don't believe you will find many manufacturers that have tested and verified their HDMI for category 2 and thoses that have the cost will likely be very expensive.

Enjoy your HT.
Eric
OP | Post 30 made on Wednesday May 23, 2007 at 09:36
Stealth X
Senior Member
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1,177
On May 22, 2007 at 11:28, bookaroni said...
Your sig is full of Pioneer Elite stuff. Very nice. Your
receiver should do fine with your DVD player set to bitstream.

Sidenote:
I just purchased the Pioneer Elite PRO-FHD1 1080p plasma
monitor. And just last week had it ISF calibrated. This
display far surpasses any TV I have previously owned.
And I've had a Pioneer Elite CLD-97 Laserdisc player for
years.
Gotta love the Elite line!

great choice of TV my man!!! i would have gotten the same if they made it in a 60"! i was upgrading from a 50" LCD RPTV and going bigger was a MUST.

so is the end result still that dolby true hd WILL NOT pass via toslink?
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