You might find that $85hr is pretty cheap, my old employer charged $95hr for labor and $115hr for programming AMX or any other control system (Lutron, Vantage).

You guys are wasting your time. Surely this is all a joke??

Sometime I feel like this business is all a joke. Courtesy of the Ebay generation a vast majority of the uneducated feel like they should be able to buy a new S-class Benz for similar pricing as a used Cavalier and expect the Benz dealer to charge the same rates as Chevy. And yes - $85 per hour for programming is cheap. If it wasn't our first system and a friend it would have been more. Oddly, my friend understands I need to make a profit to stay in business and is willing to pay for it when he is certainly the one who should get a discount.

I'm not saying that $10,000 is or isn't a fair price to program his system because we don't know all of the details involved in his system . But, I would say that if tpinfo4 bought $10,000 worth of equipment, and then the dealer says, okay, now it will cost you another $10,000 for it to work, I can understand his feeling ripped-off . Especially if the dealer led him to beleive that he could program it himself .

But, there's also a learning curve involved whenever an installer starts using a new system like C4, and most of the time spent listed by Mike is part of that learning curve . And the people at C4 are also operating under that learning curve as they keep improving (de-bugging) their product . I would expect that in a year from now, those numbers will (should) be cut in half .

The point I'm trying to make is that the client shouldn't have to pay for the dealers' learning process . The client shouldn't have to pay for for de-bugging a new product .

While I agree somewhat, look at the real world examples. Do you think it costs $200 for Windows XP discs and the fancy box it comes in? We are paying for a product in advance and even know there are going to be bugs. The learning curve needs to be paid for but not by one client, you take a loss in the beginning and become more profitable by getting better and faster

The only thing I fault Control4 for and they better change it FAST, is that all of their literature says plug and play right out of the box. This is the most ridiculous thing they could possibly print and I can't believe they haven't been sued. If the guy read any one of their brochures then it's no wonder why he thought he could do it himself and doesn't want to pay10K. Their literature is going to get them in trouble.

I hate that consumers can come here and see that company a charges $85/hour for programming and then expect our crestron programming to cost less than the $160/hour we charge.

yeah, I really didn't understand the $85/hour rate. Entirely too cheap for programming. As I type, I have a guy cutting down some of my trees for what amounts to about $200/hour.

I don't agree entirely. There should be a balance. If I have to learn something new to accomodate something they want that's out of the ordinary, or they want me to accomplish some bleeding edge feature that I advise against, they're paying for it.

If the client insists on the new product, then they may have to share in the costs of the de-bugging. If I have a guy who demands C4 right now, but I'm not sure I'm going to be installing it en masse in the future, he's sharing the debugging costs. Whether is 50/50, 70/30, etc, depends on the situation. This is something that I'll likely discuss with the client, as well as setting expectations for patience.

Of course, the first client to get a module built for a new component that is likely to be used many times in the future shouldn't have to pay for the R+D on that module. We're the ones who will continue to profit from it.

My point is that we're always learing. There has to be a balance between charging a little extra for something because you're not a hotshot at it, and not charging because you'll be using the learned knowledge on future jobs.

I think that your point is more applicable to a specialist, of which I'm not. I'm a Jack Of All Technologies; Audio, Video, AMX, Crestron, alarm, HT, integration, remotes, lighting systems. I'm sure I missed something in there.

If someone wants to hardass me for learning on the job, then hire an AMX CI, and security/DVR guy, a HT guy, a network guy, a satellite guy, a phone guy, a lighting guy, etc. Or hire an electrician.

BigPapa,

I agree entirely and think you stated more clearly what I was trying to say. One time custom applications, our mentality is "we can do it.....can you afford it?" $175K for a custom fiber optic ceiling that displayed an animation to sound effects. Never do it again but got paid for our R&D.

There is an old fable that we can all use with our customers.

A while back there was a man who lived in Arizona. On the hottest day of the year, his air conditioning died. He called an HVAC repair main who showed up in an hour. The client followed the repair man out to the HVAC unit and peered over his shoulder as the repairman inspected the unit. After 5 minutes the repairman took a hammer out of his tool bag and gave the HVAC unit a whack. He put his tool away stood up looked at the client and said that'll be $200. The client said "you just hit the thing with a hammer, how could that cost $200?" The repairman said,"it's not." Client replied, "then how do you charge me $200 for hitting the thing with a hammer." The repairman said "I'm not, hitting the thing with a hammer was $2, knowing WHERE to hit the thing is $198."

First off $10,000 is a lot of money for something I can do myself. I won't say any names but this dealer is one of the largest single electronics store in the world. I explained to the dealer my situation and he said "if you can program it yourself then I will sell it to you".

Enough with all the dealers on here pissed off at me because I think $10,000 is a lot to program it. It is not th emoney it is the principle. Why spend $10,000 on programming when I have expeirence with more complicated systems and why would I spend more money when I will need the dealer to come back because I added more equipment or have problems. I enjoy doing it myself!!!

If you have experience with more complicated systems, then I would like to know what you charge per hour.

I understand what you guys are saying . The problem (I guess) is that most customers don't realize it . Especially when all they have to go by is C4's advertising, as jcmca pointed out . They don't even know that they are in effect, beta testers for this product .

I can build a house (I guess, never tried it), but am willing to pay someone else to do it. I've never done it before, and will likely make mistakes that a pro would not. I will likely end up with a better house than one I built myself.


Can I see this store from 294? (That rhymes!)


I'm sure that the satisfaction you will earn from having done it yourself will be part of the enjoyment. I make things out of wood that I could buy for less for the enjoyment, and know what you refer to.

$10000 to program something can be a lot or a little, depending on what you expect the programming to do for you. If you have done "more complicated systems" than I wonder why you take that position. Can you elaborate?

If you bought this stuff at A&*, please tell me because I will not stop laughing until I die. This is exactly the kind of trouble I thought they would get themselves into. I gotta know.

I think he may be talking about CC !!!!!