So I have my prospective client come back to me after I have visited twice, drawn up a proposal with mentions of equipment used but no model numbers, how the system will work, what will go where, the general concept really.

I have tried not to be too vague, but I have intentionally not put in specs and individual prices because I don't want to be shopped.

He has now requested:

details of the equipment you have quoted for to date, including the phone system. Make, model and specification would be helpful along with the individual unit prices rather than block prices as currently shown.

Bit blunt I thought, but I can see where this is going. The speaker/AVR/electronics are pretty much protected for price and availability, as is the lighting. I just hate this situation where they want to know everything, and I have to do more work for nothing.

So; what do others do in this situation? Do I:

Oblige with all the detail he requires but charge my design fee.
As above but instead it is a refundable deposit.
As above but for nothing and hope I don't get even more questions about price and specs.
Refuse.

I would really appreciate some comment here as I'm now fed up with this kind of thing. You wouldn't ask a kitchen firm to list all their units, including the price of the handles, feet, wall fixings, etc?

Many thanks in advance.

In this situation I would definitily charge a retainer deposit for your time involved and designs; especially if you have schematics and drawings.

Darren Mortensen
Cinema At Home

Perhaps I should mention that I have not produced drawings or schematics.

How much time do you have invested thus far? Charge him for your time up to now. If you want to be a nice guy, tell him you will credit back the monies he pays you for design back into the project if he chooses you, or just keep it as a separate fee.

market areas are different, but personally I (or my contractees) differentiate the design portion (retainer, advanced payment sched, etc...) and the build/installation.

we itemize everything and although we don't advertise that you can get individual items cheaper via alternate channels, we don't hide it either. if the client shops and finds a cheaper price, it is up to him to terminate the contract and pursue other channels. it doesn't affect our decision or activity.

the clients that end up going elsewhere are the clients that you would want to go elsewhere.

Personally I think they've got a right to know line item pricing if they push for it. But depending on the size of the job and the amount of design time required a design fee for that information should have been discsussed up front. I guess it really comes down to "how bad do you want the job?" some people just want to be assured that they aren't getting hosed and don't really care what the actual# is. I've gone up against a few guys that were charging 20% more than list and getting away with it.

I'm sure it's done.

Charge him a design fee and hand over the list. Make sure you impress on him the fact that the prices are shoppable, but buying from you has value added that does not come in a box delivered by Brown.

Sounds like the client doesn't yet feel comfortable with your value proposition. So, you need to highlight more value and/or prove your prices are competitive.

I think you should always line-list the display. That's pretty much the only price the client can easliy benchmark, and by listing it at the lowest price s/he's likely to see anywhere you "prove" that you are aware and responsive to market pricing.

You wouldn't

Actually, most kitchen firms do break out pricing for these. They would rather sell the cabinets, and have them come back later for the handles, then sell nothing at all.

We do not charge a deposit for proposals, unless we do drawings, etc. But every proposal list model #'s and individual price. I call it "Ala Carte." If the customer wants to buy the equipment at Costco then there is an additional $60 per hour to hook it up.

This guy is a shopper! List out the phone stuff as cheap or cheaper than what it can get if for...He'll check those prices out (blow him away) & see you are giving him a good deal & you'll win his trust... But make up for it in installation and programming...Tell him you'll warranty it for two years, if you supply the goods. Otherwise, he's on his own.
Also inform him, you do not service product your company doesn't supply, even though it is the same brand/model.
If he starts grinding on prices, and is focused on price, tell him to supply all the stuff he wants, and you'll install & program it T&M... and that you don't program or set up stuff you don't ordinarially deal with.
He's asking what anyone would ask... but keep your radar up for any Red-Flags... My gut tells me you have some other concerns with this guy:)

Thank you all so much for the good advice;

Yes I think he does have the right to ask in hindsight
yes I think I will charge a small design fee
I will probably list the plasma at a good price and the rest accordingly

I guess I should discuss this all first while talking through/negotiating, and the higher labour charges for gear from eleswhere are a good idea.

I'm probably worrying over nothing, he seems like a nice chap, a bit like Hugh Grant. What is it with us lot working with movie star lookalikes?

Thanks again..

I read a members' post the other day... (can't remember who), but he came up with the suggestion to list the high-profile pieces cheap, so the client will feel OK about the more difficult to price compare stuff, and it will also enable you to ask a little more for your time & efforts. I think he priced a Plasma really cheap, because he KNEW that the customer would check on that...

I thought that was pretty ingenious... Otherwise you can beat your head against the wall battling on the price of a component or two... and get nowhere.

It's always the rich guys who have too much spare time on their hands & can surf the internet for "deals"...

We always price displays and electronics to compete with the internet providers, not quite as cheap but close enough for the small uplift to be jusutified by the fact that we are not a "bulk" supplier. these are the prices that the client will compare online. If you are way over on these they will assumme that the same applies throughout your proposal. We make the margin on our added value items, control systems are supplied at full retail, "black box" interfaces are unquantifiable money earners, as is the specialist stuff such as design, installation, programming, system training, tweaking, on-going support, etc.

Make the client feel good on the comparable prices, make yourself feel good by making top money on your specialist controls, project time and expertise.

Works for us every time.....

Once again, top replies.

I think that a thread like this does a lot of good for us guys to share tips on winning the bid and eventually giving the customer the best deal and the best system; that no box-shifter could ever do.

Mr Stanley and Nick-ISI, your right of course. I read that thread a while ago too and thought that a very good idea. One day though, that too may go south...

Every year, I have to bring out my 'Kellogs Corn Flakes' story, so here we go:

Everyone goes to the grocery store. When you shop, you usually buy the staple goods like cereal. Let's take Kellogs Corn Flakes for our example.

Kellogs Corn Flakes are made in Battle Creek, MI in a giant factory. They are created, processed, packaged, bulk-packed, and shipped throughout the country. There is no rhyme or reason, it's completely random.

When you go to the supermarket, you make a conscious choice as to where you buy your goods. In my area, there are 3 primary chains of grocery stores:

Publix - Neat, clean, higher-end grocery, with a reputation for quality product and a slightly higher price.

Albertsons - Moderately neat, average grocery, with a reputation for good selection and decent prices.

Winn Dixie - Not so clean, below average grocery, with limited selection, but know for low prices.

Now, when you ask most shoppers, they will tell you they shop at Publix because they prefer the cleanliness of the store and the courtesy of the staff. They don't mind paying a bit more for the staple items because it means they get better service.

The Albertson's shoppers are shopping there because of value. They feel they are getting the best bang for the buck.

The Winn Dixie shoppers are purchasing from them usually soley on price.

So if the Kellogs Corn Flakes all come from the same place (as do all of the staple items you buy on a regular basis), why not ALWAYS buy them at the cheapest price?

Because consumers purchase based on what experience they want while shopping. It gives them better piece of mind, knowing their food is in a clean store with friendly people, or they are getting the best value for their dollar. The particular product becomes irrelevent. Remember, most customers are buying an experience, not a product. You buy breakfast, not cereal. You buy fashion, not clothes. You buy holes, not drill bits, and you buy home entertainment, not Plasma TVs and A/V receivers.

The moral of this story is that you need to gear any presentation on what your SERVICE is like. The product is irrelevent. You can spec in any TV to meet a price point. Sell them on WHY they should choose YOU...not your stuff.

Just my $.02 worth.

Fred Forlano
Higher Defintion