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Topic:
tying knots in wires to avoid surges - is this true?
This thread has 67 replies. Displaying posts 31 through 45.
Post 31 made on Thursday June 9, 2016 at 10:26
Craig Aguiar-Winter
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What kind of knot? I feel like a nice Figure 8, oh, or maybe an Alpine Butterfly would work well but it should be tested. Some one needs to measure the amount of material used in the knot or the number of loops, etc so we can assign a surge rating to each knot.

Craig
My wife says I can't do sarcasm. She says I just sound like an a$$hole.
Post 32 made on Thursday June 9, 2016 at 10:54
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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On June 9, 2016 at 09:30, Mr. Stanley said...
Years ago lightning came into our client's home via one of the outdoor speaker wires. It then proceeded to fry all of the speakers in the house ( about 10 pair). There were a lot of 90 degree bends in the wiring throughout the house, so I gotta call BS on this.

If you're looking at this as true, it's equally easy to argue that the damage in this case would have been much worse if there had not been any right angles. Also, nobody has mentioned that lightning can best be kept out if there is an alternative path for it to take. That is, if there's an air gap (1/4" or so, I'm guessing) followed by a knot, that's likely to work much better than a knot OR an air gap. If it works at all.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 33 made on Thursday June 9, 2016 at 10:57
BigPapa
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How would you tie a knot in air?

Post 34 made on Thursday June 9, 2016 at 11:22
westom
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Too many posts based only in wild speculation. One must first learn some basic science to have a hypothesis. Most did not do that.

Sharp bends increase impedance. Electricity does not fly off a bent wire. Impedance means current creates a higher voltage at that point. Also why wires fail at splices - where impedance is highest.

Does impedance (inductance) provide protection? Again, basic electrical knowledge must be tempered with numbers. No numbers is a first indication of junk science reasoning.

Inductors in a Panamax do not do surge protection. Plug-in protectors are traditionally undersized. Those inductors increase life expectancy of too few joules inside that protector. That inductance is far too tiny (view numbers) to protect appliances.

What happens when impedance increases? Surges are a current source. That means voltage increases as necessary to blow through that impedance. Impedance does not stop surges. But impedance can influence which path a surge connects to earth - given multiple choices.

Separation (a longer wire) between protector and appliance increases protection. But only if that surge has another and lower impedance connection to earth. Making a protector's hardwire connection to earth shorter means lower impedance. Then that connection is a best and preferred connection. Only then does a long wire to household appliances (with higher impedance) make that appliance a less desirable connection to earth. But again, no conclusion is valid without perspective.

Critical to protection is impedance to earth. Every foot shorter that hardwire means protection increases - because impedance is lower. If that hardwire from breaker box to an earth ground rod goes over the foundation, then impedance has increased - undesirable. Hardwire is too long. Hardwire has sharp bends over the foundation. Both increaese impedance. A knot would also increase impedance - compromise protection.

Best is a hardwire through the foundation and down to an earthing electrode to make that hardwire shorter and without sharp bends. To decrease impedance. Electricity does not fly off 90 degree bends.  But when given multiple paths, it chooses the one with lower impedance.

Sharp bends, metallic conduit, and other factors may increase (or decrease) impedance. Knots create a tiny (near zero) impedance increase. Protection from lightning means a connection to earth must have a lowest impedance.

Critical is a lowest impedance connection to earth. Only then does impedance elsewhere have significance. Every useful answer is tempered by perspective - numbers. Most critical is a lowest impedance to earth. So that a best path is the one that never enters a structure.
Post 35 made on Thursday June 9, 2016 at 12:16
tomciara
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Oh no. He's back. Random misinformation free flowing from a well that never runs dry.
There is no truth anymore. Only assertions. The internet world has no interest in truth, only vindication for preconceived assumptions.
Post 36 made on Thursday June 9, 2016 at 12:46
Brad Humphrey
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I agree, can't have an intellectual discussion about this now.
It's going to degrade quickly into burn westom with the lighting thread.
As usual, lot of fact in his response with some wrong usage and 'perspective' :)
Post 37 made on Thursday June 9, 2016 at 15:24
highfigh
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On June 9, 2016 at 11:22, westom said...
Electricity does not fly off a bent wire.

It does if that point is close to an object that provides a lower resistance path to ground than the rest of the conductor with the bend.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 38 made on Thursday June 9, 2016 at 20:25
westom
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On June 9, 2016 at 15:24, highfigh said...
It does if that point is close to an object that provides a lower resistance path to ground than the rest of the conductor with the bend.

Arcing involves other concepts such as breakdown voltage and ionization. It occurs with or without sharp bends. Sharp bends do not make electricity fly off a wire. Especially when electrons are routinely spinning around atoms as they jump from atom to adjacent atom. A sharp wire bend is trivial by comparison.

The discussion is about knots; not arcing. Knots 'do' surge protection. Then we include numbers. That protection is so tiny that it could not be any closer to zero. But is it a minuscule amount above zero. Just enough for some to know that knot does protection. Hearsay and speculation proves it.

You accurately described why knots were tied in wires.

Another fears 'sensitive electronics'. Well, yes, when not part of a system. This same 'sensitive semiconductor' that can be destroyed by 15 volts will also withstand +- 15,000 volts when part of a system:
[Link: datasheets.maximintegrated.com]
Where does this 'sensitive electronics' fear come from? Same reasoning that also proves knots did surge protection. Meanwhile, semiconductor electronics are quite robust.

Even AC voltage variations that could harm vacuum tubes are normal (ideal) operating voltages for more robust semiconductor equipment. Hows and whys begin by discussing numbers; not by entertaining fears created by soundbyte logic and hearsay.

A knot is near zero surge protection. Discussed earlier is how a knot might also compromise surge protection. Knots to do surge protection have long been an urban myth. Better protection is already found inside semiconductors when part of a system.
Post 39 made on Friday June 10, 2016 at 01:54
tomciara
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Oh my
There is no truth anymore. Only assertions. The internet world has no interest in truth, only vindication for preconceived assumptions.
Post 40 made on Friday June 10, 2016 at 08:03
BobL
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If your home is struck by lightning and you don't have lightning rods then your best form of protections is good insurance. Lightning rods should be run straight to ground. If surges are coming in on your power lines from lightning or other sources the bend in the wire from a knot is going to have little benefit, if at all from stopping or reducing a good sized surge.
Post 41 made on Friday June 10, 2016 at 08:42
buzz
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We recently worked in a new construction project with lightning rods, all bonded together, and the meanest looking surge suppressor I've ever seen on the electric service. (This area is known for lightning strikes)

Comcast? "We don't need no stink'n ground." And a ground was available inches from the drop if the installer had cared to use it.
Post 42 made on Friday June 10, 2016 at 09:58
highfigh
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On June 10, 2016 at 08:03, BobL said...
If your home is struck by lightning and you don't have lightning rods then your best form of protections is good insurance. Lightning rods should be run straight to ground. If surges are coming in on your power lines from lightning or other sources the bend in the wire from a knot is going to have little benefit, if at all from stopping or reducing a good sized surge.

I wish I had some photos of the house Phil (from RC) and I worked on- the electrician came in after the lightning suppression people and not only did he run his drops from the 2nd floor in the same stud cavity, he used heavy wire ties to bundle all of his Romex to the braided copper cables.
My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder."
Post 43 made on Friday June 10, 2016 at 10:07
Fins
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On June 9, 2016 at 09:30, Mr. Stanley said...
Years ago lightning came into our client's home via one of the outdoor speaker wires. It then proceeded to fry all of the speakers in the house ( about 10 pair). There were a lot of 90 degree bends in the wiring throughout the house, so I gotta call BS on this.

You 90 degree bends in your wire? Or 90 degree turns? Never seen anyone wire a home and put actual 90 degree bends in their wire
Civil War reenactment is LARPing for people with no imagination.

Post 44 made on Friday June 10, 2016 at 11:00
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
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It just occurred to me that this scenario is also probably effective as birth control.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 45 made on Saturday June 11, 2016 at 09:59
westom
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On June 10, 2016 at 11:00, Ernie Gilman said...
It just occurred to me that this scenario is also probably effective as birth control.

Are you recommending death from lightning as a type of birth control?
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