I visited a site last week to do a service call on a CCTV system with a couple of cameras that were not working. When I got there, I found that the system had a total of 27 cameras out of which 4 of them were not working.
The system was a total mess, and you couldn't move a cable behind the DVR (rack mounted) without loosing the signal from another camera. Some of the cameras were wired up with RG59 and others with Cat5 and baluns.
Most of the power to the cameras were spliced before getting to the power supplies mounted in a wall rack (DVR was mounted in a rolling rack along with the AV equipment) , and the splicing were all over (not at the same spot).
I don't even know how they managed to connected all the baluns straight to the DVR since there was literally not space between when they were connected side by side.
Some of the cameras that were not working were in baluns, and there were another two baluns on the next input of the DVR to the Left and right of it, and I couldn't even disconnect the balun from the DVR because I was afraid to damage the connector at the chassis.
The job was a total hack and the customer asked me to give him an estimate to fix the system and do some upgrades.

The way I see it, I should rip off the system apart to clean up the mess and make it work properly, doing this base on time and materials, and once the system is straight up and working, do a separate proposal for the upgrades he wants.

Believe it or not I've never done a job base on time and materials, and my question is if you get anytime of resistance from the customer when you present this to them?
They way I see it, If I was the customer is that I don't have any idea how much this is going to cost, and don't have a way to know if the amount of time that I've been billing for is real.
For those of you that have been through this before, what is the best way to present this to the customer, and how do you handle the possible resistance from the customer to this kind of approach?

Thanks in advance.

This is no different than dropping off the car at a mechanic.
Until they know what's wrong with the car, they can't tell you how much it'll be to fix it.

In your case, give them an estimate of 20-30 hours to straighten out the equipment. Include $x,xxx for some shelfs, cables, connectors you think you'll need.

Tell them that even if they don't choose to fix the bad components right after you're done straightening out current mess, you or anyone else at anytime in the future will benefit from organized wiring, in terms of quicker (therefore less expensive) upgrades. Explain that they can spend the money once now, or every time anything needs to be touched, replaced, upgraded.

If you don't do time and materials and just fix the cameras in question, you will be called back if and when the others cameras affected in the new fix go down.

I always say when installing a new piece or fixing the system, you are ultimately held accountable from then on.

Fix the mess now and explain this to the customer.
Try and generalize a price based on worse case scenario.
If you exceed the price of the whole original installation this may not be worth it
for them or for you.

Otherwise write up an "as is fix" collect you money and be gone.

If you do redo the system, make sure you wow them to show it should or could have been done.

CI

Think of all the possible ways this install could go wrong and tally up the costs. Present the customer with a detailed quote showing a "Not to exceed" amount.

If you end up coming under your amount, you look like a hero to the customer and you make your profit.

If you end up going over your amount, you don't estimate well and chalk it up to a learning experience.

Agreed......They are already likely used to LOW prices based on the service they originally got and will wonder why you are so much more. not your problem. estimate conservatively and be upfront and honest. if they balk that is your signal that this job and client will consume you. The last guy is probably long gone and they want someone else they can shift the blame to. Tell them that "I do it this way and this is what is costs for a reason" (that reason being "look at what the last guy did to you"). If they don't want it - don't be afraid to move on!

DVR makers have worked out just how stupidly close together they can put BNC panel mount connectors, and balun manufacturers have followed suit, making baluns JUST EXACTLY as wide as that spacing. I don't think it was a conspiracy, but it sure is consistent. I haven' run across any baluns that don't fit, but I haven't run across any baluns that leave more than 1/16" between baluns. All this makes the BNC removal tool worthless. IT'S REALLY HARD to change those connectors!


Not exactly. If you end up coming in under your amount, you look like a hero to the client and you make fair labor charge on the job. If you end up spending less time than you estimated but charge the client what you estimated, then you make your profit.


True, but I try to guard against this by telling clients that I expect something to cost this and such and we will talk if it starts to look like more than 10% over my estimate.


Show them the crappy wiring, explain how someone did this so cheaply that it is likely to break over and over as you work to fix one little thing after another. Low prices caused this mess.


Totally your problem! If you do not clearly communicate that they got screwed, but at a low price, and you're not going to screw them, they will always feel ripped off by you.


Be a little more charitable than this says, but it's looking in the right direction. You might even need to tell the client that you're looking for signs from him that he's willing to move out of the past and do things differently now. That's being upfront and honest. And differently will be more reliable starting NOW!


Exactly.

I haven't read it yet, but CEDIA just emailed a link to an article about T&M:

[Link: cedia.net]

 

What they said. The issue you will run into is everything you touch will fall apart, everything you bump will knock out a picture, and after you leave, things will stop working because of this. An old system is like an old car, too many parts to go bad.

I walked away from one, there were existing ip cameras, all running on the same network as the equipment in a factory (probably 20 of them) they wanted to add another 15. The facilities manager didn't know the password to the router, keys for racks were missing. There wasn't enough information, too old of an infrastructure to break that I would be responsible for as soon as I added cameras, and way too much to go wrong being that all on the machines were on the network too.

Sometimes it's best to walk away or start from scratch.

I've got my popcorn. So what did you do?

How can you tell us all that without completing the story?

We only do time and materials...most clients actually prefer it if documented correctly. The pro's are you know you're making money...the con is you're leaving money on the table on jobs you finish more efficiently based on fixed cost estimates (ours is T&M estimate +20% for most jobs).

The other benefit by doing T&M is that bids become far more accurate as you can analyze project my project and see how long things take and adjust going forward.