This is basic stuff, but being an overly detail-oriented person, I appreciate any input on the following.

What is your go-to for basic in-ceiling 70 volt background music in a restaurant setting - normal restaurant - not a loud bar setting or anything. Ceilings are probably 10 foot.

I've typically gone with Crown amplifiers. This particular job would have two indoor zones with 6 pairs of speakers each and three outdoor zones with 3 speakers each. Just curious if there are other brands you guys like in terms of amplification as well as whether any of you have used the Snap 70 volt amps.

Also, I'm assuming a 4 watt tap setting would be sufficient in this type of environment. I was looking at the Snap 6.5" in-ceiling speakers. Any experience with these?

TIA!

Not You again!

jk.

70 volt systems are mono. It will clarify your thinking if you stop referring to speakers as pairs. As you have listed things, if you tapped them all at four watts, your calculation would be (6x4x2)+(3x4)=60. It's easier if you think of it as (12+3)x4=60. Then when you need to add that 13th speaker, the concept of pairs won't stop you from considering just one more.

There are LOTS of brands available. You have to experiment. Sorry.

As for settings, that encompasses line level volume control levels, power amp wattage, and zone volume. Again, you'll get a feel for this.

A lot of background music only requires five or so watts per speaker, but don't forget that +3 dB equals twice the power and +10 dB equals ten times the power. I used a 35 watt amp for paging many years ago where we had perhaps a dozen speakers. Several were in a not-too-loud factory assembly area and some were in a shipping area with forklifts running. That is, 35 watts was enough.

But move to music, and want it playing at a reasonable level, I'd instantly go to 200 watts. I'm looking at fill outside the main area of a church right now, plus some external rooms, and I bought got 2X200 watts.

You should tap the speakers at the highest wattage you can that results in the total speaker wattage being 1/2 to 3/4 the power output of the amp. This gives you headroom, but more importantly allows another speaker or two to be put in if the overall design needs to be tweaked for complete coverage.

Great questions. As far as power goes I would normally tap the speakers at 15 watts for restaurant service area and 30 watts on the outdoor speakers. You can get some affordable 70-volt amps from Crown or QSC that would do fine with the project and help justify the higher tap settings.

As with most things, having extra power is a good thing and your not going to there when they turn it up for the big game and stretch the system.

Regarding the Episode 70-volt gear from Snap, I haven't had a chance to use it or even listen/see it at a show. I've used the residential product and its been built well. In the past I've always used Tannoy CVS6 on the commercial side for speakers. JBL and Atlas Sound also have some good product. I would stay around a 6" speaker if the budget allows to give the music some good depth, even at low levels. With the outdoor zone I would use as many speakers as you can for a distributed style system. More speakers at a lower level is much more relaxing and conversational than two speakers playing loud.

The other smart thing would be to get a power sequencer in the rack or something similar so they can just hit one button to turn the system off at night. If you want to give an extra layer of value there put in a DBX Zonepro with some ZC remote volumes (one or even multiple) and then you can volume limit the system for protection and over excited staff. Also gives them a nice way to mix in different sources and a microphone.

Thanks for the input Vertical.

I've noticed in commercial there are a lot of speakers that are like $30-$40 each - are these just complete junk or are they an actual candidate for a restaurant environment. The Snaps are just $39/retail. And what's with those giant round commercial speakers with the little grills - those are butt ugly.

I do like your suggestion on the Tannoy.

Is sound quality important?

$40 speakers sound like $40 speakers!

I've used these on several jobs and the sound quality will make you smile.
[Link: fullcompass.com]

Pilgram, the Atlas are a viable alternative.

Andrew, have you talked to a supplier about these questions?

By "restaurant," do you mean Denny's? Then yes.


A lot of systems done with the round grilles are butt cheap, too, such as in your local grocery store. But fidelity doesn't count there; system price is supreme. It's eay to mount a circular grille correctly, as there's no way for it not to be level or straight -- it's a circle!

Nevertheless, I have significantly improved the sound of a 70V system by taking out the crap, 6-0z magnet speakers behind round grilles, and replacing them with beefy coaxials. The round grille is NOT a predictor of performance, but it does allow cheap.


They're excellent speakers... the ones that are excellent, that is. We've even used some Tannoy subwoofers at 70 volts!

These are all excellent suggestions. My $0.02 would be to ask the restaurant owner plenty of questions that will help you decide between that $30 paper speaker or the robust cabinet speaker - or the 70V layout vs 4/8 ohm.
Ask if they will ever need source matricing, microphone priority ducking, a DJ who will come in and hammer the piss out of the system, a trivia night where mic use is critical, noise ordinance rules, karaoke, etc, etc. Usually, after laying these types of questions out, the answer and the budget become much clearer. I know you were just wanting brand choice opinions, but sometimes the answers to those questions determine the brand. Good luck.

I definitely agree with bennettavi on this one. Most restaurant owners or designers will have a vision or concept in their head and its your job to flesh it out. In addition, even though they may not want to give it out, you'll also want to get a budget from them. Even if they don't have one at first...they still have a number in mind. If you can find that out up front you can also help to educate them on how their vision can't be reached for that amount of money and what the budget should be or change in scope.

Manage the expectations and don't assume they understand what it is going to take. Back when I was a consultant you would get a lot of investors that had ideas on what they wanted but no clue on the realities of cost. I would have a casual sit down with all the players and talk about it. Don't get too technical on them either, just make sure the concepts and functionality is covered.

If there is an interior designer or architect on the project you should introduce yourself to them too and coordinate the physical layout with them. They can also be allies in this process and provide more work down the road

Those last two posts are great, but there still might be the basic issue of informing the client as to why they want a 70 volt system instead of a "stereo system."

First, I see no valid reason for a restaurant larger than the ten-seat Thai 'to-go" place near me to use four or eight ohm speakers. These are the installs you see where someone has draped 22 gauge speaker wires over to the corners where the removable speakers from the boom box are hanging from the wall.

70 volt, like cross-country power distribution systems, allows you to use smaller diameter wire; allows you to choose how much power to pick off at each location; does not require special series/parallel wiring for impedance matching; allows you to add more speakers or just one more -- try THAT with a stereo!

Which brings up the fact that stereo is designed for one listening position, while you want to fill the space with sound in a restaurant. Mono is the answer there.

As for power or fidelity, I recently helped a friend install a KILLER multizone system at Nobu in Malibu. The owner knew it had a lot of power but fell in love with it after hearing it and asking us to turn it up. We felt the bass from the floor with our feet, and a) this is a 70 volt system and b) the "floor" is a huge slab, maybe 16" thick, over the beach, that is, IT'S SOLID. He designed and installed a similar system at Towne in downtown Los Angeles... can be loud, excellent bass, multi zone. Yes, we're talking about more than a thousand watts in each case. Yes, both systems have subwoofers.

If you think 70 volt has to be crap sound, or cannot play loud yet clean, or cannot have subwoofers, you need to talk to the vendors to find out how much you don't know. Fred is a great one to talk to about this. And adopt a habit: look at the system every time you go into a restaurant. You'll learn what brands you'll want and what to avoid. And look up the relevant threads here.

I haven't read the whole post besides the original because I have to fly.

But I have used the Snap 6.5 70 volt with crown power and we were more then satisfied with the sound. Typically I use JBL but for budget reason we were forced to go cheaper. Not sure I would use an Episode amp, but there 70's sounded great.

Install was in a bar/restaurant tap 15.