Your Universal Remote Control Center
RemoteCentral.com
Custom Installers' Lounge Forum - View Post
Previous section Next section Previous page Next page Up level
Up level
The following page was printed from RemoteCentral.com:

Login:
Pass:
 
 

Page 2 of 2
Topic:
Equipment Damage from Under Voltage
This thread has 18 replies. Displaying posts 16 through 19.
Post 16 made on Thursday August 25, 2011 at 19:37
Mr. Stanley
Elite Member
Joined:
Posts:
January 2006
16,954
A few years ago i volunteered to show a movie at our community center to about 60 kids & their parents. It was in a little town's old Log-Built lodge from like 1880 or so...

I brought out my Projector and the movie was playing along fine, all the kids were getting into it when , all of the sudden there was a brown out, and the projector shut down... I ran into the office and grabbed a fan to plug in to cool down the projector as it's fan did not kick-in. Meanwhile, all the kids started yelling and all of that good stuff. Finally I got the projector running again to the cheers of the kids & their parents... THEN about 3 or 4 minutes before the end of the movie, the projector shut off AGAIN - and this time the kids were pissed, and even a few (slightly drunk) parents had the ba**s to come up to me and start giving me grief!!! I did this for free as a favor! Anyway I waited for the power to come back up to a level to where the projector would come on, and much to my horror, I got the red flashing (lamp light)--- the lamp fried, and the whole place was full of bratty screaming kids, and very upset parents!!! Of course i didn't have a replacement lamp and the kids missed the end of The Chocolate Factory movie. I had to announce "sorry the shows over kids"...
The worst part is my son was there as my little assistant, and he witnessed me getting yelled at by everyone in the community center --- All due to a crappy electrical system! Was not one of my better evenings. I was HOPING that I'd get all kinds of leads from people who enjoyed the big screen experience. Of course nobody even bothered to say "Hey Thanks Anyway"... I just sort of slipped out of the place and did the walk of shame to my van. I felt like a leper.
My son looked at me on the way home and said "Hey dad, I hope you aren't going to do any more of these stupid movie nights again"!!! Ha ha ha oh god it sucked!
"If it keeps up, man will atrophy all his limbs but the push-button finger."
Frank Lloyd Wright
Post 17 made on Friday August 26, 2011 at 03:19
Ernie Gilman
Yes, That Ernie!
Joined:
Posts:
December 2001
30,076
As we should have expected, bring up a topic we haven't talked about yet, and Mr. Stanley has a nightmare story about it!

On August 25, 2011 at 18:48, KRAZYK said...
Power=Current*Voltage

Yes, that's true.  But nobody has said that there's some magic in anything short of a switching supply that adjusts the current drawn in order to output the same amount of power.

During a low voltage condition, current increases in order to maintain the correct power output.

Well, let's start with a resistor: Not.  When the voltage goes down, the current goes down, so the power goes down.

With Incandescent bulbs, when the voltage goes down, the light output goes down and less current is drawn.  (Not mentioned is that incandescents have lower resistance when cold, so their current versus voltage curve is not a straight line.) 

On the other hand, some types of electric motors (I'm being unclear because I don't know enough details not to be) do indeed draw more current when the voltage goes down!

An increase in current results in a increase in heat to components.

Yes, if it happens.  But to a lesser extent in switching supplies; again, that's not a straight line curve.

What I'm getting at is that you cannot make a blanket statement such as this post started with, that is, power equals voltage times current, and assert that power is always the same.

Fortunately most electronics are designed with sophisticated power supplies which compensate for fluctuations in voltage. A low voltage condition is isolated in the power supply in most cases with an increase in heat and really isn't a major problem.

That is to say, yes, there's an increase in heat, but this post seemed to imply that the increase in heat is a problem.  With most power supplies, it's not.

Regulated power supplies working at normal line voltage supply a higher voltage than required for circuitry, and a regulator drops it down to a precise value.  Now, with this type of circuit, lower electrical voltage means less heat and higher voltage means more heat.  Again, not all cases are the same. 

To put it another way, know your stuff.  Call the manufacturer and ask about over- and under-voltage situations.  Have technical discussions like this.
A good answer is easier with a clear question giving the make and model of everything.
"The biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place." -- G. “Bernie” Shaw
Post 18 made on Friday August 26, 2011 at 09:47
KRAZYK
Long Time Member
Joined:
Posts:
October 2010
481
What I'm getting at is that you cannot make a blanket statement such as this post started with, that is, power equals voltage times current, and assert that power is always the same.

Agreed!
Thanks for clearing things up Ernie!
KRAZYK

Things you own end up owning you!
Post 19 made on Friday August 26, 2011 at 18:55
bcf1963
Super Member
Joined:
Posts:
September 2004
2,767
On August 25, 2011 at 18:48, KRAZYK said...
Power=Current*Voltage

During a low voltage condition, current increases in order to maintain the correct power output. An increase in current results in a increase in heat to components.


The above comments are true... If the load happens to consume a constant power. The issue, is that a great many loads do not act like a constant power load.

AC motors vary greatly. The ones most common in homes fall into two categories.

A "squirrel cage" motor will consume more current when the load on the motor is high. These are common for AC compressors, and blower fans on HVAC equipment. If these motors are run at low voltages, high currents can result, and damage the motor, or trip breakers. This follows the "constant power load", comments made above.

In some modern appliances, AC motors that implement special motor control circuitry are present. I have seen these most on home washing machines. The circuit works to change the power available at various speeds. In a washing machine this can result in handling a larger load, with a smaller motor. The circuitry in most, is smart enough that with an undervoltage condition, the motor will simply not attempt to run. So such motors have no problem or damage from undervoltage events.

A light bulb is more of a constant resistance load. As a constant resistance load, as the voltage drops, the current will also drop. This is apparent when you look at ohms law: V = I * R. If the resistance stays constant, as voltage drops, so must current. An oven or the heating element in an electric dryer looks like a constant resistance as well.

Very few power supplies will look like a constant current load. So few, that I can't think of an example, other than small areas in circuits specifically designed to produce or consume constant currents.

Most power supplies will fall into one of two types, linear or switching.

In a linear supply, a transformer is used to couple energy from the primary to the secondary. A lower voltage on a linear supply will result in the primary attempting to draw a greater current to allow for the same power output on the secondary side. Most linear supplies typically have protection on either the primary or secondary side of the transformer, and when the current gets above a level that would cause damage to the components, will typically interrupt the flow of current. One way this is done, is with a fuse. Obviously, replacing fuses in lots of things every time a brown out occurs would get tiring. It typically is in fairly inexpensive items where this is done, where the current consumption is typically small, and the fuses are there to provide safety during extended brown out conditions (brown outs that last in the multiple seconds.) Typically such devices can handle such long brown out events, because the output powers are small enough, that the electric company powers the circuit down, long before the brown out event could damage the device. Electronic circuits which notice this condition, and use an electronic switch are quite common. Linear supplies have become fairly uncommon today, as they tend to be large and heavy for a given power output. They were commonly used in the past as they are simple to design and build. The vast majority of linear supplies used in consumer goods will not be damaged by brown outs.

Switching power supplies use a control circuit that carefully controls the current and voltage. Every switching supply I've ever seen has circuitry to recognize an undervoltage condition (which could occur during a brown out), and shut down the supply during an event. Without such a circuit the possibity would exist to cause damage to the supply. I have not seen a switching supply that would be damaged by brown outs.

So, the only items I would worry about during a brown out, are AC motors for appliances (refrigerators, AC, blower motors, etc.), and the cooling for a bulb in a projector.
Page 2 of 2


Jump to


Protected Feature Before you can reply to a message...
You must first register for a Remote Central user account - it's fast and free! Or, if you already have an account, please login now.

Please read the following: Unsolicited commercial advertisements are absolutely not permitted on this forum. Other private buy & sell messages should be posted to our Marketplace. For information on how to advertise your service or product click here. Remote Central reserves the right to remove or modify any post that is deemed inappropriate.

Hosting Services by ipHouse