So I am looking for a new fire wire interface to go with my PC based recording system.

I think I have it down to the
Focusrite pro40 [Link: focusrite.com] or the Mackie Onyx Blackbird [Link: mackie.com] I had originally considered the Presonus stuff, but I have seen so much bad press about that line that I am steering clear of that mess. I really want something that will be the least trouble to deal with in the PC environment, once its setup I just want to plug it in and it works everyday no Scooby Doo mysteries to solve. The device has to have at least 8 inputs, with ADAT integration. Needs as close to zero latency as possible. Midi is a bonus, but I already have 2 midi interfaces so I can live without the additional ports.

Do any of you have an opinion on either of these products?

Thanks for your help

Whichever one you get, I'll be jealous. I'm still using an M-Audio MobilePre... :)

Funny timing/
I just gave up on my Tascam FW-1082 and will receive tomorrow night an M-Audio Project I/O

Since I can't tell you how well it works (and it does not appear that you are looking for a control surface), I can tell you that a huge amount of the interface problems come from the Firewire interface chipset on the PC card or mobo.
Consensus is if you don't have one using the TI chipset you can expect issues.

Also heard some good things about the RME
[Link: rme-audio.de]

What software are you using? You might check on that vendors forums for the consensus on the best interface.

Of the two products that you mention, I'd go with the Focusrite hands down. Mackie has had a shoddy history of supporting its products through various OS updates. The Focusrite pres are ok, but the Onyx pres are actually not bad either. The latest generation of Presonus stuff that I've used is actually not bad at all, haven't had any stability issues except with certain discontinued products. Their new line of VSL interfaces are pretty damn cool.  [Link: presonus.com]
They more or less stuff the capabilities of the StudioLive live mixers into a rackmount box, so you  get the advanced features of that mixer along with some cool things, like iPad control over the VSL application.  It's not Firewire, but USB2.0, but don't be afraid, modern drivers and non-legacy support version of USB interfaces have managed to get even reduced latency over Firewire (like Apogee).  Firewire can be very good too and has been the undisputed champion up to this point for non-PCI based interfaces, but can be prone to specific chipset limitations (non-TI).

Are you a musician recording yourself or will you be stepping into an engineering role and recording others?  There is a big difference in what feature sets are important depending on how you'll utilize the interface.

With respect to latency, the only way you can eliminate latency is to use an analog mixing board.  There are a few products that are interfaces, mixers, and some even include MIDI control surfaces.  The A&H ZED-R16 is probably the most well rounded example of this concept (although non-motorized).  The Mackie 1640i is another example, although it does not act as a control surface like the R16.

Every other interface that doesn't have some basic hardware direct monitor / mixer, uses some sort of DSP to create a digital cue mix that may or may not be close enough to "zero-latency) to matter.  Even playing back sound from a speaker has latency to it, due to the air / distance that sound has to travel from the cone to ear.  Some people can detect 9ms of latency.  Some can't detect 20ms of latency, so this part is pretty subjective.  The Focusrite unit you mention uses on-board DSP to provide near zero latency cue mixes.  The Mackie actually routes inputs 1 and 2 directly to the headphones / monitors in the analogue domain, so are in fact zero latency, like you would experience from a mixing board.  The Focusrite / DSP approach has advantages if you are primarily an engineer and need to set up more complex cue mixes or independent cue mixes for mulitple artists / producers.  The Mackie would be more appropriate if you are a musician and your needs are really only to satisfy yourself.  The DSP mixer on the Focusrite is pretty low latency and should be good for the majority of people.  The new 3rd generation MBOX Pro actually has a very low latency DSP mixer built in and would be a viable option if you can deal with its slightly lower I/O count and have your own outboard preamps if you need more than 4.  The RME devices use a DSP mixer and are the most advanced implementations of the DSP based cue mix out there, with the exception of the Metric Halo devices, which blow away the RME, but are Mac only (I'd switch to Mac, not because of any Mac vs PC debates, but simply to be able to use Metric Halo gear).  The RME allows one to use a MIDI control surface to control the DSP mixer, so one could set up a rudimentary "hardware like" cue mixing environment with a control surface if you use one.  The audio quality and conversion are generally considered more on the "pro" side of things than from "consumerish" boxes like those made by Focusrite, Mackie, and Presonus.

MIDI ports built into an interface are no longer really important.  There is no real technical distinction between an interface built into a device and attaching an extra USB to MIDI dongle.  The computer sees each exactly the same and it's all abstracted through the computer's drivers anyways, don't let the lack of built in MIDI deter you if you need it.

Thanks for your very detailed input.

I was an engineer for many years, but this setup is for my own song writing environment. I will be sticking with my PC for now so it sounds like the Focusrite is becoming more of a front runner in my search. I am more of a hardware guy versus someone who uses mostly virtual instruments therefore, I have two midi dongles to work with as I typically use more than 16 midi channels. My E4K sampler uses 16 channels all by itself. Since I am using a lot of acoustic guitar and vocals descent sounding mic pres are a must. I know at this price point they wont be stellar but its all I can afford right now.

Thanks again !

Excellent write up Tom!!!

Thanks Buzz, as I sit here and write up a new MDU proposal, I look forward to my next session in the "other part of my business", which is as an engineer and production sound mixer. If anyone visits Hawaii and wants to tour or hang out and jam in the studio, let me know...



www.audioresourcehonolulu.com/

How many inputs do you need? Are you going to be recording drums? Or just yourself playing one instrument at a time? And also, are you wanting to use any outboard gear while mixing, or are you just using plugs for processing?

If you want minimum latency, then you need to use something other than a firewire based interface. Whatever the actual latency of the device itself is, there's additional latency for the Firewire transmission of the audio.

I use an RME interface. They have good, PCI-e based interfaces, which will get you minimum latency and they have super-solid drivers. I had a 9632 card for a while, which will provide you with one stereo input and one stereo output (to drive the monitors.) If you want more you can get something like a Multiface II which is what I have now. It's PCI-e but with an external box you can rack mount. It provides 8 analog I/O, and one digital. And one nice thing is that you can plug up to three of them in at once, to add more I/O.

Personally, I prefer something like those, both because they provide minimal latency, and because I prefer to use external pre-amps so that I can use whatever I want, instead of one in the interface itself. Interface technology improves fairly rapidly, and you may want to replace them before too long. A good pre-amp will remain a good pre-amp forever and you can just hang onto it.

On the latency front, there are a few issues:

1. The sample rate. The latency is in samples. The higher your sample rate, the smaller and amount of time that many samples represents. Though of course you are also putting a far higher load on your system as you go up to higher rates.

2. How you monitor. If you just want to hear what is coming in to be recorded, then lots of interfaces provide direct monitoring of the incoming signal without any latency at all. If you want to hear what you are recording as it is being affected by some processing in the DAW, then you are getting twice the latency because you have to send the signal in, and you have to wait for it to get back out.

3. And the native latency/load handling ability of the interface itself, as mentioned above. PCI-e systems will have the least of all and will be able to hump the most data through the system before they bog down. At the cost of course of being tied to the system via a card. And some will handle a lot more load before they start to have problems, so you can run higher sample rates and get lower latencies.

This may or may not be a problem, depending on how you work. If all you are doing is recording real audio, then most modern systems can handle a large load. If you are using software synths and heavier processing plugins, then as you crank the sample rate up, it's not only sampling everything faster, it's also making all of the plugins and soft synths work harder as well. Some times the combined load will start to cause issues, even on a fast system.

show off :-)

On the mic pre-amp front, don't get all fetishistic about them. There's so much craziness about mic pre-amps and some people seem to think that they are the most important thing in the whole process, when at best they are well down the list of important issues to take care of.

Depending on what type of music you are making, you can generally pick up something of good quality for a reasonable price if you purchase used, and pre-amps are typically safe enough bets for buying used.

Do you ever need to record stereo? If you are doing a lot of acoustic you might want to do some mid/side type stuff or use a couple mics simultaneously.

Are you looking for a more vintage vibe, or something more modern?

If you could swing it, just getting one nice channel strip would be a very good thing to do. The more you can do to get the sound right on the way in, while it's still all analog, the better in my opinion. A good channel strip will provide you with a pre-amp, EQ, and comp all in one box, so you can get the sound much closer to correct on the way in.

Personally I find the modern 'just record stuff and make it into something in the computer' type attitude to be the antithesis of what making great music is about. So I concentrate the most on getting it right on the way in. And that means that you don't need lots of outboard get to get a nice, warm, analogy sound, because you are getting it that way during the recording process.

Even keyboards, buy a small, clean amp and run them through that and record them with a mic. It can make all the difference between something fairly sterile and something with the sound of a real group in a room.

Oh No! What if my V72 hears you?

[Link: tab-funkenwerk.com]

Nothing wrong with having a good one. But a lot of people are just completely obsessed by them, as though they were more important than learning to actually play your instrument or knowing how to create good compositions and so forth. I have a Solo/610 and a Great River. Neither are super-high endy, but clearly if anyone couldn't make great music with those two, the problem is their skills not the pre-amps.

For most of us DIYers, the problems are things like the room, which often sounds really bad and so people are driven by DI and close mic everything, or they do it because they don't even want to learn how to really mic instruments. And of course without considerable treatment a small room is horrible from a mixing perspective. I have enough 703 in my wee apartment here to kill the Russion Army from fiberglass inhalation. And that in turn means that the room, bad as it sounded anyway, is now pretty much completely dead from a tracking point of view.

And there's also the problem that self recorders never get to hear all the parts of a song before they actually record. It creates a real chicken and egg problem that leaves many recordings by folks like us lacking in mojo and excitement that would probably be more likely there if there were a group of people recording at least the basic tracks all at once.

Those things are probably orders of magnitude more of an issue, but people still just get mystical about pre-amps for some reason.

Thanks for the input Dean. I am a 35 year veteran musician. I started working I have recorded on every kind of multi track analog device on the planet and have experience with every kind of microphone you can imagine. I started working with protools in the early 90's. My old system is well old and cumbersome. I have long since sold off my Spectra Sonics solid state & ADL tube compressors and my tube equalizers.

I just want something now that is reliable sounds decent enough which I can lay some tracks down with out a lot of fuss. Something that will also travel well if I want to cut a few tracks with my friends. I will be using reaper for most of my instrument and midi recording because it is simple and stable.

I do not anticipate tracking multiple analog instruments simultaneously, other than a couple of mic's on my acoustic guitar and voice. I have an ADAT XT that I can use for 8 additional analog inputs.

The reason I need so many inputs is because I have some analog outboard gear that I really love. one of these is my Emulator 4 keyboard which can reproduce 16 simultaneous instruments divided with 128 note polifany. these 16 instruments can be assigned to any one or pair of 8 outputs. I plan on connecting all 8 of these to the ADAT inputs.

I plan to use 6 of the fire wire inputs for my 2 drum modals and midi bass. the remaining two inputs will be for instrument and vocal inputs.

I am using a desktop PC which I used to use with a Digidesign 002 rack module that I sold a few years back. So I know the fire wire card works ok.

I have an Audio Technica 4033 mic that I have had for about 15 years but still works great and an SM57 that's never been used.

I am really shy of Presonus because of all the horror stories I find on line about that line up

Thanks to everyone for the input :-)

If you want to travel then Firewire is probably your only option and you'll just have to accept the extra latency I guess. Of course everyone is now excited about Thunderbolt based interfaces, but that's still fresh bits and will have a premium price. If anything the threat of that on the horizon may force down the price of Firewire based units I guess.

Jeez is that mixing console large enough! Amazing though.