You've gotta be kidding.  I've had this debate at least 20 times and at least once on this forum, I'm not getting into it again.  This is the last I'll say on the subject.  

If a US automanufacturer makes a profit, the profit stays in this country.  When the profit stays in this country Wall Street notices it, and the economy reflects that.  Check for yourself if you don't believe me.  Go back and look to see what the market was at during bailout time, and then fast forward to when Ford announced their profits.  Ford, GM, and Chrysler are good for your 401k.  Period.

That's it in a nutshell.  Here's the bottom line.  There is no other product in America that is responsible for a larger percenetage of our GDP than the US Auto manufacturers. 3.5% of our GDP comes directly form US Automakers.  

What you're arguing for is one of the reasons we owe so much money to China. Americans spend money on foreign goods, the profits leave the country and they never come back.  That's why it's important.  When the US Auto Manufacturers show a profit, so does everyone on Wall St.  That's why they could not let them fail.  

These massive companies (including the foreign manufacturers) are supplied by small suppliers sprinkled all over the country.  If 1 US Automaker failed, it would cripple the suppliers.  Once suppliers can't get paid, they can't produce the parts needed and go under. (New Suppliers can't pop up over night, these aren't rite aids we're talking about.) And since they're all supplied by the same suppliers. NO cars could/would be made in the world, manufacturing would come to a screaching halt, and it would steamroll from there. Now you've just lost 3.5% of your GDP and a large potion of the world lost their GDP as well.  Then it gets ugly.

The next thing you'll say is..."The foreign manufacturers didn't need a bailout!"...The Japanese manufacturers are already subsidized yearly by the Japanese Government.  

And just so you know, Line workers at the US auto manufacturers don't make 100k per yr.  Not even close.  These are all misconceptions.  I live here, we all know people who work on the lines.  

Another fact.  There are 10 engineers for every 1 line worker at all Auto Manufacturers.  Where's the outrage at how much they're making?

Again, shocked.

I'm not saying you have to drive an American car, that's up to you.  But you should at least understand how it works amp;feature=related

The thing is, any simple minded dipstick DOESN'T know. First, there are more dumb people than there are smart people. Not their fault, it's just the way it is. They're literally dumb. Then there are the ignorant people of which there are many. The American education system is a sad, cruel joke (and much worse over the past ten years than for several decades before that, "No child left behind" is nothing less than evil). We, as American students receive zero financial education, nor are we taught how to learn. We're "trained" to recite garbage and "excel" at tests and then we import our doctors and engineers from other countries that do a much better job.

So, much like a sick person goes to a doctor and trusts the experts advice, reasoning that the expert will have the patient's best interests in mind, many dumb (remember, that's not their fault) and ignorant (products of the American education system) people went to "experts" for guidance on their first home purchase. They also had every reason to believe that experts had their best interests in mind but, what we as a country have learned is that those "experts" were actually greedy, selfish, dirty, evil, traitorous (I use that word quite intentionally) scumbags. There is no Hypocratic oath in finance. Millions of loans were sold to the unwashed masses as beneficial, and they were beneficial but, only for the sharks who were turned loose by a lack of oversight and accountability (Republicans love to talk about "accountability" while demonizing "regulation", they are one and the same). Many of these same people truly didn't know what they were in for. Compounded by the fact that the bankers and loan sharks destroyed the real estate market, these people were stuck with expensive, shady loans for homes that had been appraised at prices that were far removed from real value, hence, negative equity.

It's a sad state and many people should have known better (myself included, I struggle to make the mortgage on a home that is now worth $40K less than I owe) but, there were a great many that were victims. Don't kick them when they're down...

I don't think anyone is supporting the walking away from a home loan. We understand why they are doing it but that doesn't mean we support it. And NO. Losing a home, having your credit destroyed is no where near the same thing as our government stealing our tax dollars to bail out the banks that caused the financial crisis. What should have happened is the government should have used our tax dollars to pay off everyones home loans and let the banks lose their property and have their credit destroyed. The banks bent us over and then charged us a fee for raping us.

The difference in a home and a car is that a home is an asset and the car is a liability. Its common knowledge that the car will be worth less the moment the ink is dry but everyone assumes that a home will be worth more in the future.

Big business has created the new American way of thinking. Very few have pride in the work they do because of the way workers are treated. Need more money per hour? Your all fired because we are sending your jobs to India and China. 401K? LOL we spent that on yachts and baby seal carpet for our dogs summer home.

Our parent (the government) isn't and hasn't been picking anyone up. They are stealing money from our pockets to fund private wars against nations with oil reserves. They are stealing food off our tables and handing it to the banks that crashed the economy. They are picking our pockets every second of the day and they have some of us blaming ourselves and our neighbors for it. "i cant find a job!" Gotta be the mexicans! Can't be the blacks because thats racist. It must be the mexicans who magically trick employers into hiring them for half what an American would expect to be paid. "The housing market crashed" Its those bastards who couldnt afford their loans! They should have known what the formula was for determining whether or not they could afford the payments! They should have had law degrees so they could read the fine print and know exactly how much their loans would increase by once they began to balloon. The nerve of them! Blaming the banks for giving them what they wanted!

Yep.


Yep.


How could they/you/me have known better? The PRO told them they were good to go. The blame belongs to the government and the financial institutions. The home buyers followed the rules. The banks didnt.

Please tell me you own your own business!

Reason being is that I can do what your current employees do for more money, so why would you hire me. You have people doing it already for less. Well it works the other way around too. If I became a distributor in your area and sold the products you currently buy cheaper would you switch to me.. Let me answer that for you..

As far as your home and car comparison goes yes you are somewhat correct. But please tell me something that you pay more interest on then your home.. You don't get that back. The value in your home is living in it in my opinion. I'm not talking about 2nd homes or investment homes either.

As far as your last paragraph, it's a bit circular but tell me something. Will you come to work for me and dig ditches all day for 30 dollars a day? Want me to answer that question for you too. No ones taking any job that you would do and don't get me started on the minium wage crap..

The globe spins on greed you better get used to it, we all go to work for a profit.

Oh and if the government doesn't provide people with a safety net then please explain the entire welfare system.

One more question. What is our fault in your opinion.

That's easy.

We keep sending dishonest people to Washington and (insert your state capital here).

Yep!!!

But please tell me something that you pay more interest on then your home.. You don't get that back.

The interest you pay on your home is a tax deductible expense, so you actually do get it back if it's your 1st home, 2nd home, or home equity line of credit.  

"The bush administration is responsible for the entire housing market crash. The guy in charge not only allowed it... he initiated it. "

39 cent, that is the dumbest thing I have ever read on the net! Do you know history? I clearly shows your bias and lack of understanding economics, policy or even common sense. A common thread from the liberal kool aid drinkers.

Careful, one uneducated comment like that from you can cause one to completely lose faith on anything you post no matter what subject. That would be sad as sometimes you can offer meaningful insight to our industry. You should stick to the industry and leave the politics to those that have a more clear understanding of how things really work instead of drinking the Oberman kool aid. The sweetest can only rot ones teeth but the brain as well.

Tax deductible doesn't mean you get your money back... it means you get a small percentage back, based on you tax bracket. So of the tens of thousands that you spend on paying interest, you may get a thousand or two off your tax bill... better than nothing... but not exactly a good deal either.

I do know my history. Bush signed legislation that allowed lenders to circumvent rules that were put in place specifically to avoid things like... i dont know... the collapse of the housing market.


I am not worried. Those who dont understand reality rarely benefit from help with anything else. They just invent more imaginary scenarios to fill the void left between their ears.

What legislation was that? I'd be interested too look that up and see what exactly you are talking about.

I own a hobby business but the bulk (99%) of my income comes from my job as an installer. What does that have to do with anything? I have a calculator on my phone and PC.


I dont really understand this. Anyone can charge more for the same service just as anyone can charge less for the same service. The people doing it for less are either much more efficient or cutting corners meaning they aren't providing the same service. What are you getting at?

Of course i would buy product from a distributor at a lower cost. Who wouldn't? IMO anyone paying more for the same exact product is a fool.


I agree that there is value in living in the home but thats not the only reason people buy homes. It has always been the American Dream Investment where you pay in and borrow against and trade up. First home or otherwise. That isn't going to happen for a long time. An entire generation has to make other plans because buying a first house isn't going to be a good idea for a while. Why would someone spend 4 times as much for their own home vs rent a similar home and not have to worry about all of the associated risk?


This is the disconnect. This is where half the nation gets it wrong. The reason ditches get dug for $30 a day in the United States is because employers are breaking laws and hiring illegal immigrants to dig ditches. If the employers followed the rules an American would be getting paid $200 a day to dig those same ditches. Those ditches need to get dug whether they cost $30 or $200.

The employers create this false idea that dug ditches should only cost $30 and that if they hired someone at $200 they wouldn't get dug. They pretend as if they are somehow passing these savings on to the public. They are not. They are sticking them in their bank account.

I dont really care. Good for the employer for figuring out a way to make more money and IMO mexicans deserve to be in the United States just like any one else who crossed a border or ocean to get here.

But... please save me the right wing talking points about how A. no American wants those jobs and B. how Mexicans are destroying our job market. Both statements are absolutely false and ridiculous. A.Americans would want those jobs if they offered a fair wage. B.Mexicans are not hiring themselves to do those jobs. The nation was built on the backs of hard working people from allover the world. Americans wont take those jobs because we are Americans and we expect to be treated and paid fairly.


I am used to it. But just because the world spins on greed... it doesn't mean i have to pretend its ok and convince myself that i have to screw people over to get ahead. I work because i enjoy working. Obviously i have bills to pay but i could pay those bills working part time at McDonalds. I had a place to live, a car and a girlfriend when i made $5 an hour. I have the same thing now. House is bigger cars are nicer but its basically the same thing. If i wake up one day and decide i dont like my job anymore i will be perfectly content with moving back to my old apartment and driving used cars. What i wont do is try to figure out a way to trick people into finding my existence.


The welfare system was a great idea on paper but when it came to actually making it work it was/is a total failure. Its the typical "throw money at the problem" solution that our government is very good at. Rather than invest money in social programs that will help the poor navigate their way out of poverty we train them to stick their hands out. (get your tin foil hats out) This is part of the "leave every child behind" conspiracy. If everyone is wealthy who will we tax?



Our fault in what? The housing market? If you mean OUR like the home buyers i say we have ZERO fault in the housing market crash. I don't have time or the inclination to learn about mortgages and mathematical formulas just like i dont have time or want to learn about dentistry. I go to the bank for loans. I pay them to do their job and tell me whether or not i should be able to get a loan. If they fail at doing their job correctly the blame is entirely on them. It would be like me selling my clients Control4 and then blaming them for not buying a real control system.

The bush administration claimed that state APL regulations were stifling innovative finance LOL. Translated that means that the laws kept wallstreet types from figuring out ways to steal money from peoples pockets. Once the states rights were stripped the fun began. Whats really confusing to me is how the conservatives cry about big brother and their federal reach and champion states rights all they way up until they start to cost them lobby dollars.

Did you answer my question?

:confused: