For the guys suggesting offering/charging bench test service/fee, what is your process?
Do you:
1. Make customer bring equipment to shop and stand by for initial unpacking/basic inspection?
2. Go to client, unpack it in front of them, make a list of parts taken, and plug unit in to verify basic operation?
3. Do all unpacking, testing, etc. at shop with no client present
4. Others

I ask because I could see a case where:
1. Box is missing parts and client now blames you for stealing them
2. Parts are broken, and client blames you for purposely breaking them
3. You bill them for 3,5,10 or how ever many hours and client is pissed 'cause he doesn't think it should have taken that long, blah, blah, blah.
4. Any other shit you came across from dealing with like situations

Mario

I was in a similar situation 2 years ago. I priced a new Elan system for a customer. It was an 8 zone Elan system with an S12, power amps, OLE panels, a music server, a dual tuner, XM tuner, IPod dock and video switching. The project was a new build including structured wiring, security etc. The customer decided he could purchase the gear on Ebay cheaper and I made a poor decision and agreed to install this stuff at T&M and no warranty. When we installed, the dual tuner was defective and wouldn't power up, The XM radio's antenna input pin had been broken off during shipping and had to be sent to Elan for repair out of warranty. The RS232 on the music server was defective and was unable to receive 2 way feedback on the system. A couple of the OLE panels were defective and had to be replaced for new. In the end the customer paid 1.3 times what it would have been had he accepted the initial proposal.

I made money on the project BUT this is the lesson that I learned:

1. Customers like this will only chew up your time in service calls. Service calls are a necessary evil in our business and we get paid for them but these types of projects have the potential of taking your time away from better business.

2. People refer the same kind of customers. Their circle of friends are like minded. That's why they hang out with them. I got a few calls from this client's friends and all of them were not worth the time of day.

3. I was contributing to the demise of the CI industry. By allowing this project to happen, I essentially put the word out on the street that I was "Cheap". I was getting the same level of respect that the roofer was getting.

4. You can't and won't build a reputable and profitable business by allowing this type of job in your business model. It only attracts price driven clients.


After this experience, I stopped doing jobs where the customer purchased the equipment elsewhere ( TV's excluded).

My personal opinion is that we, as an industry, (me included) have been so sales driven that we have lost the essence of what we do. We are CUSTOM installers and we need to be compensated for the education and experience that we are able to deliver. We have allowed the " Bad Economy" and the fear that comes with that notion to reshape our industry. With all the discussion on this site surrounding price and how important it is to survive, I feel ,somehow, that we have become part of the problem. We have allowed the economy, our customers, and more importantly, ourselves, to dictate how  successful we will be.

Since stopping the owner supplied projects, I have to admit, sales did decline and it was a scary time. BUT it gave me time to focus on profitability and we recovered the numbers in time. We are doing much larger projects now and the respect level has increased 10 fold. I no longer have to hang a sign around my neck that says, " Please hire me! I'm desperate and cheap!"

Bingo. I wouldn't double the labor rate. IF you really feel you should, then walk. Doubling the rate screams F U, while walking you can sugar coat and say the job has a very hi probability of going south and would rather not put both parties in that position

agree, with the caveat that stamp expressed.

This "cheap" customer falls into one of two categories. He is either "teachable" or "unteachable". He pulled a dumbaxx stunt by going around you and purchasing the stuff on ebay. This is either a onetime mistake or a lifetime pattern of stupid behavior.
If you think you can teach him why he should not have purchased the gear from ebay by charging him a bench fee and requiring him to be present during the entire testing process then go for it and charge appropriately and use the appropriate warranty disclaimer(s) on your contract. I had an attorney do this to me and I made him stand by for 6 hours during his work day while I tested the equipment. I then asked him how much he made per hour as an attorney and multiplied that rate times six hours. He lost $2,400.00 to save $800.00 and the system was defective and had to be repaired at additional cost.
How I sold him on it is I told him I could only do bench testing during the weekday business hours as telephone tech support was only open during that time and I needed to be able to connect with a tech if I had questions during the testing process and if anything was defective I needed him to sign off that he observed the whole process. He now buys everything through me.

If he is "unteachable" in your opinion, then call him and politely decline his offer to hire you and move on.

I understand that some of the OP's say blow him off but I feel as a professional you may win this guy over if you show him why what he bought on ebay is more than a "commodity". If you can do that and make good money while doing that then go for it.

Why in the world would you print this statement on a public forum? And some one down this thread suggested to direct the customer here to read our responses.
Personally I walk away from all these type customers, but if he reads that response he will dump you and probably spread the word that you would sabatoge a system for your benefit or just because you're pissed he went to ebay.
Iv'e lost plenty of income because I have walked on these types but I feel like I would have lost anyway if I did the job due to other BS the used system caused. From this point on, you won't trust anything he does anyway and that just causes friction and stress. Money is not everything to me, but I'm old and don't owe a dime to anyone for anything. Ask him what he does for a living and if it would matter if his customers did that to him. I think you know that answer. Better yet, just politely decline the job and walk away.

So the client didn't scream F U when he bought the stuff on fleabay (love that term)?

This kind of client will be the biggest pain in the butt........always have been.....always will be............no question.

The only product that I will allow on designed systems are TVs. No warranty if it fails. That is put in the contract.

Explain it to the client. You put your time into systems that you can warranty. You take care of your clients. He is not a client by wanting you to install something that you can not warranty.

It was just a joke. I thought it came across as such and apologize if it did not. As for what I am going to do with this guy I have not yet decided. There are good suggestions here, but a lot of them vary greatly. My biggest concern in dealing with a customer like this is how will he deal with everything down the road. Will he pay on schedule? Will he find reasons to withhold money? I have dealt with similar customers in the past who purchased most of the the stuff on their own in similar fashion, and after installation was complete withheld money for months while their contractor finished their work to make sure he liked how everything turned out. This had nothing to do with me. I finally was paid, but it made me a bit leary on dealing with customers that look to save a few bucks up front.

I am still new in business and learning as I go, and greatly appreciate the advice of those that have been through it before. It really helps me by learning by other's experience and thank everyone for all the advice they have given me and continue to give. I will decide today on what to do with this customer.

We know this but you should go back and remove that statement now.

If you're happy with the labor quote you gave him, you can do the job but understand he's going to balk at ANY extra labor you try and charge him. It's a lose, lose situation.

With a guy like this, you need to get your money up front! He has already proven to you that he does not value you or your services.

I want to give you a customer perspective in this post.
When I built my home in 2006 I had plans to get a Crestron Adagio system.
Due to cost of home I was unable to get the system installed when the house was finished. My system integration did all the prewiring. They installed speakers in my entire home. The only thing they did not do was install/configure crestron equipment.

A few years went by my financial situation changed for worse. However my desire for Creston still stayed the same. I had seen the quote from my integration for Crestron(equipment and programming) and I could not afford it. I began looking at Control 4. There were many things I liked about Control 4 but a few things bothered me.

I began reading Crestron manuals to learn more. I came to forums like this to get answers. I came up with a basic design.

I once again contacted my system integrator and another integrator in town.
Both of them gave me quotes for equipment at MSRP, install charges and programming. Programming charges from one of the intergration to install Crestron Adagio with 3 APADs, 2 Touch Panels with basic UI was $15000. They were going to charge me $200 per hour of programming. Their install charges for the system with existing Crestron wiring in place was over $5000.

My original integrator had much more reasonable install charges. Their programming charges were in the $4000 range.

I ended up buying the equipment online from an authorized dealer.
The cost of 20% below MSRP for brand new equipment.
I ended up getting programming done remotely. The cost was $1800.

I gave my local system integrator a chance to match the equipment pricing and they refused to do so.

They did install my system in 2 days. They also installed a TV, rear speakers in the bedroom, a camera in the baby nursery. I bought rear speakers, center channel and sub from them. The cost was very reasonable.

My system integrator told me that they charge based on work that needed to be done so they were fine with doing my install as long as equipment was new.

This was the only way I was able afford my system. Instead of paying $15000 for just programming my system I was able to get the entire system purchased, installed and programmed for an amount slightly more than this amount.

If I can afford to pay for the entire system I will love to have all the work done by my system intergrator. For me the choice was between Control 4 or a Crestron with a little sweat equity so I chose the later.

Just so you know, Crestron does not allow any online sales. So much for the dealer being authorised to sell it.

+1 and here we go again. More trunk slammers chasing the money instead of protecting the industry.

hehateme
there goes all that free advice everyone was so quick to give up. I wondered why you were asking Crestron questions but then had another thread where you needed to get behind you AV rack to make changes.
Sweat Equity? What hard work did you do? Take that shopping list to Ebay, Classy.

I would tip my hat to your integrator if I wore one!! Imagine that actually having to PAY what the product is WORTH. Way too many companies discount when they shouldn't, this IS why this industry is in the state it is in.