I am easily distracted so rather than try and dig this information up myself and translate it to Stampeez so that i can comprehend it... Can someone explain it to me? I started a new thread because the other one may go away and its pretty much off topic now anyway.

These are my questions.

#1. From what i have seen/read since way back when at the AVS thread where i learned about the product a year or more ago... You have send and receive units and a switch. I get this part. My question is.. how do you control the switching? IP?

#2. A few people touched on surround sound zones. Whats the solution for someone using the Just Add Power products? Imagine a home with 18 stereo zones and 5 surround zones. What product would you use?

#3. I am not interested in the technical details of how or why. I just want to know if you are getting OK/Good/Great picture at all of your displays. The product is obviously very impressive but an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10 is something that i would have to pass on.

Thanks.

I answered question #1 by watching the youtube video. IP and RS-232.

I haven't tried the product, but I've seen version 1 in action and switching is near instant and quality was good. I've heard mixed reviews about the quality on 42" and up displays. The new 2G version is suppose to have lossless video.

The switching is done via a managed network switch. I don't know much about this, but basically a 232 port into the switch with setup vlans and then its controlled router port 1 to port 10, connect port 4 to port 15, etc.

I have a project where the 5.1 zones have local Bluray, so the audio is taken care of, but the DTV would have to be 2 channel (possibly an acceptable trade off), but now with streaming content an ATV/Netflix whatever getting better and more 5.1 audio with their streams, distributing the 5.1 is going to be needed.

I've heard they are working on something to distribute the 5.1 audio along side or something, I really don't know. You could always use a digital audio matrix, but most of those also come with component which seems like a waste of $$ for the client.

Stamp, I'm under the impression you'd like to get some "peer" answers to your OP, so I'll sit on the sidelines for a while before posting the Just Add Power company answers to your questions.

Stampy

#1 - It breaks down as follows:
You have 2 types of transmitters-
Rack Mount Transmitter with 3 HDMI inputs and 3 Ethernet outputs
Single Transmitter which has 1 HDMI input and 1 Ethernet Output
2 Receiver Types:
Regular receiver which has 1 HDMI output and 1 Ethernet plug and power supply
POE Receiver which has 1 HDMI output and 1 Ethernet plug and is powered via standard POE

You select a transmitter which ever suits your install needs x inputs that you need and receivers for each tv

you can use many available managed network switches and control them via ip or serial.

Each transmitter resides on its own vlan and when you send commands to the switch you are controlling the receiver based ports

example of switch ports

1: Directv Box 1 vlan 1
2. Directv Box 2 vlan 2
3: BD Player vlan 3
4: Apple Tv vlan 4
etc etc etc vlan 5

13: Family room tv
14: master bed tv
15: master bath tv
16: patio tv
etc etc etc

you would issue a command to the to switch telling it to switch the tv ports to different vlans to make the video image from that vlan display. ie port 13 is on vlan 1 then its watching box 1 if its on vlan 3 its displaying the bd player

#2 With 18 stereo zones you would of course have some sort of audio switch. With many infield jobs tested and proven results there are a few ways to go about things. Many dealers wondered about lipsync issues using the analog outs on sources and hdmi for video but no one has seen an issue yet. As far as digital audio to distribute sources to 5 SS receivers you can use a digital audio matrix switch or some dealers have used a splitter and send it to multiple receivers with great success

#3 since the 2 gigabit version of product is not released no one except me has gone on record stating about its video quality. The 1st generation product does have a good amount of video compression so the rating you gave it correct but does satisfy the needs of 95% of clients out there. The images look great and meet the exceptions of the dealer and client. 2nd Generation uses gigabit networking and a new lossless video compression scheme to give you a near perfect image. Comparing a standard hdmi video signal vs the 2g on my pioneer pro-111FD has shown that no one could tell the difference between them. That is a great sign to me of the possibilities for this product to be used as a video distribution system. It does not fit the needs for every dealer but will help many get video in a new way

PS. I am an authorized distributor for Just Add Power.

The press release I saw, didn't say lossless, it said "visually lossless". In other words, the compression is lossy, but the manufacturer thinks it looks good.

Caveat emptor!

Im interested in any/all information. I realize its a new product and not many have used it. I dont spend much time researching HDMI so i dont care much for the technical details. I am a wiremunky so i just want to understand how it wires up, how it gets controlled and whether or not picture quality is good.

I am not interested in debating the technology or assumptions about it. I am not being negative here. I am just expressing where i am coming from. Most of the articles and threads about your product are littered with technobabble thats over my head because i don't care to invest my time into understanding it. Things are changing and everyone.. like it or not.. has to start distributing HDMI so its time for all of us to look at whats out there and ask the questions we need answers to.

Sorry Stamp, but I'm gonna have to get into some of that techno-babble-mumbo-jumble details to respond to this comment.

Have you never noticed that Blu-Ray has never claimed to have lossless video? They only huff and puff about lossless audio. I would recommend you read the article at [Link: media-matters.net]

Admittedly the best video source available to consumers today is Blu-Ray, but it is built around a video compression protocol that is inherently "lossy" (read the article). There are no commercial sources of truly lossless video content on the market. Yes, Blu-Ray looks great, but it is not lossless video. The Just Add Power 2G solution uses a patented process that is visually lossless, which is technically better than that "lossy" H.264 protocol coming off of the Blu-Ray disc (again, read the article). The lossless video process requires much more bandwidth than a Blu-Ray disc player can deliver (BR disc video data rates are about 50mbs, and lossless video compression needs about 300mbs - read the article). If/when less "lossy" HDMI video sources come to market, we can distribute them and the delivered image will be visually lossless. For now, we can distribute that "lossy" video from your Blu-Ray player and the result is visually lossless (i.e. you can't see the difference, if there is any at all).

w/out derailing this thread thats all anyone wanted to see...  

I'm also very interested in this product and am basically in the same position as stamp.  
I did a job today where I had a lip sync issue with Cablevision..  Going into a Rcvr thru a 1 meter HDMI cable.  You really have no issues with lip sync delay transferring analog audio or digital audio thru a separate matrix/device?  

Please keep in mind that if the content is easy to encode, the codecs used in BD will achieve lossless status. Hence the reason you can see test patterns perfectly in BD test discs. Admittedly, this rarely happens with real video but wanted to make sure we are accurate about how things work :).


So which is it? "visually lossless" or mathematically lossless?


So sounds like it is not mathematically lossless. Where is the quality degradation? Your web site is not specific. If you just send which blocks are different then there should not be any difference. But if you apply something like DCT compression to each block, then your scheme is just a simplification of what the standard codecs do.

BTW, I should add that I really like the concept of your product. Unlike Stamp though, I want to understand what makes is tick so I know how to use it well :).

Visually lossless. The following information currently posted on our homepage goes into more detail:

The Just Add Power 2G Processor integrates a very powerful patented Video Compression engine providing a wide range of options to control the video quality level and the compression ratio. This gives the 2G solution the ability to deliver a visually lossless output. The compression algorithm is a proprietary one, specially developed to enhance both the video compression ratio and the graphics compression ratio that can be achieved. It should be noted that graphics compression is typically much more difficult to handle and consumes a great deal of network bandwidth. Basically, the visually lossless compression algorithm adopted by the Just Add Power 2G Processor is built on a block-based compression scheme. The block size is always 8 pixels by 8 pixels and the color format is YUV format. Before compression, the captured RGB-format video stream is automatically converted to a YUV format video stream. The Video Compression Engine automatically monitors any scene change block by block. Only the blocks with a scene change will be compressed again. This scheme significantly reduces the average network bandwidth requirement.


One of the primary goals of the 2G HDMI over IP solution was to significantly improve the video quality in comparison to the already popular and well received 1G solution. The objective is to deliver distributed HD video over the LAN that is visually identical to the source content. In order to achieve this visually lossless objective we were forced to move from a 100BT network architecture to a 1000BT platform. This 1000% increase in specified network speed gives us the necessary bandwidth to implement the patented visually lossless CODEC referenced above. Users of standard data compression utilities are already familiar and comfortable with the concept of lossless compression. Interested parties with a more technical perspective can get a better understanding of the nature of our proprietary compression algorithm by studying Steganography with an eye towards the role of the least significant bit (LSB) in identifying overhead bandwidth in a video signal. It should also be noted that we are achieving our visually lossless compression of 1080P content with a Maximum RGB Error equal to or less than 1 LSB. The end result is the ability to replicate stunning 1080p video that cannot be distinguished from the source content, allowing Custom Installers to satisfy the video quality demands of the most demanding clients. This is a claim that we could not make for the original "game changing" 1G solution ([Link: cepro.com]), and is the most distinctive characteristic of the 2G HDMI over IP design.

I invite you to come see it yourself at InfoComm. We will have a dedicated 2G demonstration in the Digital Signage Pavillion (including side-by-side comparison with a direct feed from a Blu-Ray player) at booth N2873. There will also be samples demonstrated in the Central Hall at the TecNec booth C4845, and we are working on setting up some other demonstration points at the show. We will also be demonstrating the 2G solution at CEDIA-UK the following week (Booth A2).

Does the dealer or J.A.P provide the switch? I am pretty network savvy and I have never heard of switching or controlling individual ports on a switch in real time like this.

1. Is the J.A.P. switch on a separate vlan from the rest of the non J.A.P vlans in the home?

2. Is there a recommend list of switches that have been tested successfully for 2g operation?

3. Is the product HDMI compliant in terms of HDCP, EDID, source keys etc?

TIA

Plenty of dealers have been providing their own switch. On the other hand, some of them prefer to get the switch pre-configured from the same distributor that is selling them the J.A.P. devices. While the configuration process is not particularly difficult, it is a bit different for each brand of switch.


I think you meant to ask if the J.A.P. devices/vlans can be on the same switch as the rest of the PC's and other internet devices in a home (if not, please restate the question). This is more of a philosophical question than a technical question. While there is more than enough bandwidth in a good switch for the HD over IP devices to coexist with the standard network appliances in a the home, some of the more conservative installers prefer to use an isolated switch for the J.A.P. application. I personally am more of a "push the envelope" mindset, and don't hesitate to use the same switch for everything.


That list for the 2G's would include the Cisco 2960 (Gigabit models), Dell 5000/6000 series, Linksys SGE switches, and Netgear 7000 series switches. Pakedge is supposed to be releasing a new Gigabit switch with updated firmware that should work very well with our 2G solution. We pretty much expect the vast majority of Managed Ethernet Switches to work just fine. The only real problems we have encountered with any switches are some of the off brand models from China and the entry level switches from Netgear (seems to be an IGMP support problem). The benefit to using one of the proven performers is having access to the already written drivers/applications to interface the J.A.P. HDMI Matrix with automation solutions like AMX, Control4, Crestron, M-Control, RTI, Savant, URC, and Vantage (with support for many other platforms in the works).


Yes, the J.A.P. solution is HDMI compliant and HDCP compliant. At the same time, and a source of much joy for our dealers, the J.A.P. solution administers the HDCP keys in an approved way that allows us to overcome the number of keys limits built into some sources. In other words, we can take that Motorola cable box with support for 1 HDCP key and show it on hundreds of HDCP compliant screens simultaneously. Do a google on 'HDCP approved retransmission technology' before you believe anybody that tells you this is not legal or possible.  They're either misinformed themselves, or intentionally misinforming you (anybody who can manage to get me a video recording or a hard copy of any literature or corporate representative disparaging J.A.P. in this way would be most appreciated).

Speaking of legalities, in our most recent corporate compliancy review with www.hdmi.org (the HDMI Licensing LLC authorities) we have been made aware that they are now asking companies to discontinue using the word HDMI (a Registered Trademark of HDMI LLC) in the name of a product. Therefore in the spirit of compliancy we will be changing the name of the Just Add Power solution. Most likely we will be calling these devices "HD over IP"(tm) or HDIP(tm) for short.

in related news, www.hdmi.org has asked CE manufacturing companies to submit new ideas detailing even more imaginative ways to give the industry reasons to hate them.  specifically, the request includes ways to make HDMI (even) more likely to fail in a given installation environment, added (as yet un-thought-of) features to keep the specifications piling up, more ways to ensure planned obsolescence in legacy HDMI cables, and ways to make the connector fall out of the jack at least one time per month.
www.hdmi.org has also put out a request for development of a technology that will make your mouth burn every time you say "HDMI".