Full blown Crestron? I have done many, many "Crestron" systems that were RF remote, multi-zone receiver, and Component video matrix. The "full blown" Crestron system was 3500 or so. But the system permitted all equipment save display to be hidden, was rock solid and easy to use.

What could be wrong with a decentralized lighting system in a 4 million dollar home where aesthetics matter? Since when did Lutron Homeworks become a "full blown automation system?"

Sorry, Lover, everyone "wants" a full blown automation system. They just don't wish to pay for one. A 4 million dollar home with dreckorator should yield a home where aesthetics matter. I centralized lighting system with keypads will be more expensive. It will also have fewer electric devices and so look better while providing all the functionality. Hiding electronic equipment is the sine qua non of EVERY high end project I've been involved in. They often do not value the automation system but they do want the equipment to work without having to see it. It's more often simpler to deliver the desired functionality with some sort of automation system than without it. This means it has to be explained or sold.

As long as the price of the system is not beyond the client's ability to afford it the odds are that he will value the solution it provides---integrating technology into a beautiful home. They may not want touch panels but they do not want to give up electronics and they do not want the electronics to detract from the elegance of their interior design.

Alan

This might turn out to be your best client in the end, and maybe not. Who knows. It would be on you for bad design IF you designed it.
When somebody is willing to over pay to install what they want, I don't see the problem.
I have seen people with Crestron systems and not use them.
If it were me, but its not, I would do it, wire it to the max, and when and if they are unhappy with their designed system, you will be ready to step in and upgrade.

I see where you are coming from, I wouldn't be happy installing that system either, but it a job.

Sorry Guys, It took me a while to chime back in but I'm feeling a little better and although I am still massively upset about this job it is not the end of the world.

Alan spelled it out pretty clearly in his posts and I could not have said it better.

The Contractor and architect on this job are both people I consider friends and I work very closely with on a regular basis. I've had numerous calls from both of them hoping to comfort me so I don't walk.
The job was speced for control and the system was bid based on things the client wanted such as to view cameras and adjust HVAC and lighting remotely. They wanted a simple interface with 2 way communication and to eliminate as much wall clutter as possible. They wanted intercom and an image to pop up on the screen when someone rings the doorbell. They wanted gate control and remote security options. They wanted an easy to use audio interface and all equipment to be located in a utility room out of sight etc. etc. etc....
This is what was speced and put into motion until the whole thing came to a halt when they brought in their hometown wannabe decorator and her Flaming electrician husband.
First went the lighting control because lighting should be left to the decorator. (What????)
They have no lighting plan and they are installing Radio RA on the fly. There is absolutely zero consideration for accent and task lighting. Everything is ambient.
As soon as the contractor told them they need to get with me regarding the lighting integration everything changed in favor of Stand alone systems. These fools are against even triggering the lights in the event of an alarm. It is completely obvious that they have no clue what they are doing and it is extremely frustrating that they are running the show with the home owner in the palm of their hands.
They are forcing the contractor to push out a wall in the master closet that protrudes into the bedroom entrance. This is being done for a fireplace and renders a good portion of the master closet useless as well as a very screwed up strange shaped narrow entry to the master suite.
This crap is happening to everybody on the project and the decisions being made are horrific mistakes.
It's just a bad deal all the way around and I have a right to be upset when an interior decorator turns a personalized control system into glorified Abus because she wants to make money while screwing up the lighting control and her husband has a severe case of automaphobia.
There are a whole lot of upset people and the homeowners are getting screwed.

I had drinks with the contractor and architect last night and we are wiring for the original design and everybody else is prepping for retro.
It really is a shame but all hands are tied and all communication to the homeowner happens through the decorator.
We all know it is wrong and we all know when the homeowner sees the project (after finish) (who does that?) they are going to lose their sh*t. we all sat through the meetings long before the decorator was involved and we all know what is wanted.
This chick came in and the first thing she did was fire the electrician. Then she started making changes based on her wallet.
It will be interesting to see how this pans out. The contractor is heavily documented and forced by contract to do as the interior dictator requests. She has the right to make any financial decisions and or changes to the project. (Again, who does that?)

I know there are a couple of you that don't understand why I'm torn up about this but trust me. If you were in my shoes you would be too and I am certainly not the only one on this project that feels this way.

Now I understand the story a little bit better. I would be upset over the whole deal as well.

I would send an e-mail to the home owner and tell them the system going in will not do what they want.

No Can Do!
Auto response. The whole thank you for contacting us and an all questions and concerns are to be handled by the decorator. If this is an emergancy please call the decorator at #####. This chick has real power and we just get to ride the train.

Wow, as long as your ass is covered for all the things you are doing. Maybe you can even mention somewhere in the contract that the system specified is against your professional recommendation or something to that effect. This way when the client is pissed or unhappy, maybe they'll turn to you and say "so what would you recommend".

The only sh!tty thing could be that in the end they are unhappy and trying to blame you. Sure there's nothing they can do to you directly, but you the contractors, architects everyone should be concerned about their reputations.

don't you have a chance to recap system requirements and set expectations in the contract? for all the areas where you feel the system is wrong, add a caveat ("note the system will not...") somebody will sign this, and so it seems like an opportunity to get whoever it is to think twice (or at least start the accountability trail that you'll need down the line.)

Ah, lover boy. You are right.

CYA! It sounds like in the initial meeting with the client you were asked to provide a system that had certain features and now the ID is asking you to provide a different system. Who is your contract with? If the client is signing the contract you should document the features of the system they requested at the first meeting, document what the current system will do, and most importantly list everything that the system will not do that they originally asked for. Have the client sign this as part of the contract. If the contract is with the ID she needs to sign off on this and you also need to have a document signed by the client that states that she has the power to make all decisions on the project.
Communication problems can kill a project and your reputation. If the client wants OnQ and RA in a 4m house that’s fine, but if they think they are getting Homeworks and Crestron there is going to be a problem. Does the client even know the changes have been made? If the ID is not allowing you any access to the client I would be very concerned about taking the project. If you take it CYA, have a good scope of work with exactly what the system will and won’t do.

So are you making four times the money over the original system, or four times what it should cost to install the pos system? If its the first, maybe a little "bribe" to the ID so she could still make some money off the deal would allow you to install the correct system, and you get to still make money and avoid the S%*t storm that is coming.

Four times what it should cost to install the pos system.

My contract is with the builder and yes he is fully documented as to who is in charge and what power they have. All change orders are noteing reason for change order, system limitations and exact deliverables and will be signed off by the ID and witnessed by the contractor before any work begins.

He is doing the same thing with his contract and covering his own azz. The inspector is a good friend so he is going to use that connection to reverse as many changes as possible. We'll see how it goes!

Best of luck! And hoping this doesn't over-stress you and also come back to bite you in the "azz"!

I feel bad for you but this is an interesting story to follow for me.

If you do it keep us informed.

Let the ID know you are ready to work but the system SHE has spec'd does not do what the homeowner asked at the first meeting. Remind her that the system YOU spec'd was the one that would do what the homeowner requested. Let her know you are willing to do a great job for her and the homeowner, but you will need to email the owner and let them know so they will not be disappointed with the functionality of the system. And also let her know that you will need her and the homeowner to sign off on the true functionality (including itemized "Note that this system does not xxxxxxxx").

Maybe you will get the system you wanted after all. Just make sure everyone knows what is going in.

I love my interior designer ally!

If a client calls referred by her, it is a deal, period. She meets with me & the client to help sell. She even helps upsell! I have even had clients balk at a presentation & she convinces them to go with my pitch, every time.

I have another one that doesnt even own a tv at her own home, but once I was able to win her over she is totally on my side because she now trusts me. First time I met her she had told her clients to just go to BB & get those pretty Isignia tv's cuz they were white & silver & the entire budget for the a/v segment of the project should only be around $2500 for 4 "tv's". I had to literally hold back from openly laughing out loud! A little patience, time spent educating, selling, etc. & we bumped the little project up to around $20k. She now sends lots of biz.