On January 25, 2011 at 11:23, charris said...
I respectfully disagree with all the posts from RTI installer and I have experience with RTI. I also have experience with AMX/Crestron/C4. RTI is nowhere close to C4 as a total automation/integration system. Also l found funny his post showing a picture of prodigy and mentioning that it is a better/more capable platform than C4 - at the moment it is not but I believe after a few months, probably years, it will be a competitor to C4.
Regarding the SR-250 I can honestly say that it is the best remote I had in my home so far and I have tried a lot from the 6k AMX 8400i and the smaller 5200i, the AMX R4 and RTI T3 and T2C. There are a lot of reasons why the SR250 is very good but two of the most important ones are the following and no one mentioned them: it runs on normal batteries and it is very cheap ($300).
The cheap part is quite important and I think wireless remotes are one of the big problems in our industry. This is based on one reason: because they always break down. Since they will break down eventually, their price must somehow correspond this. Since they will break down you must keep spares because for most systems - especially those with video distribution or hidden equipment - it is a critical component since without it the customer cannot watch tv. When you have tens or even hundreds of these remotes out and you have to support them the above points become very important.
Don't get me wrong - I am not thinking with my pocket - I have projects with 16+ 2k remotes and I like to sell 15" Crestron TPs - those last many years though and generally do not break and I do not mind selling them. What I mind though is giving the repair bill or telling a customer that he has to replace the 2k remote he bought 2 years ago. I have seen many sad and surprised faces when doing this and most my custoemrs are very wealthy and spend more than 6 figures on their system. I find that this is very bad for our industry and the only solution for this is the prices for wireless remotes and their parts to come down. We do not need other expensive components like 4k processors and 10k wall touchpanels to come down in price - those will last a long time and are generally trouble free.
I agree with C4’s lower price point being a big plus, and I agree with pick something that works for you and be the best you can with it.
But I completely disagree with you about RTI not being a total solution. This simply is not true at all.
RTI can do just about anything. Maybe you have tried it and it did not fit you model which is Ok . That does not mean that RTI is not a great total system solution for others, it just means it is not a good system for you.
RTI is different than other systems and takes a very different mind set to truly implement to its full potential. Even a lot of people who install RTI really don’t know RTI because they come from a different background. If you are trying to make RTI into a Creston or C4 or Elan clone you are going to be very disappointed, simply because RTI is not any of those things. It is a whole different animal. It is not less than those other systems, perhaps it’s not greater than either, only different.
If you are a digital musician think “Logic Audio” versus “Pro tools” versus Cubase
Its like comparing Mac to PC they both can work great, they are both computers for the average Joe only they are very different, and they each take a different mind set to be useful to the user. PC guys get frustrated when they have to use a Mac and likewise with the PC. It does not make either bad they just are what they are and you are either a PC person or a Mac person.
When we were doing RTI whole home a few years back with no two way support at all some of you guys were moaning and groaning about how that will never work and how RTI is not a whole home solution blah blah blah. I would counter those statements with a real control system starts with good design on the installers part and has nothing at all to do with expanded features like two way. All that really matters is that the system meets the customer’s expectations in performance, reliability and ease of use. Everything else is just frosting in my opinion.
Well, gee, grumble grumble grumble how do you get your touch panels to work together without two way sniff sniff. You get your brain out of robot mode and figure it out. We did.
Now here we are years later RTI has gone way past two way control and some of you guys are still moaning and groaning trying to find some reason why RTI is no good as a total home solution. Prejudice comes in many flavors I guess.
Regarding Remotes
I can guarantee that if you lay your C4 remote on a table next to a T2C+ and ask Mrs. Customer which one is easier, she is going to pick up the T2C+ and probably not even look at the C4 remote. Sure the RTI product costs $400.00 more but so what. Shave the cost off something else. The whole family, Mom, Dad and juniors peace of mind is more important than perhaps an extra pair of speakers in a bonus room.
Sure someone like me could probably be quite happy with a C4 remote, I might even say that its better, but then again I am not trying to sell myself the dam remote. I have three decades of experience installing electronics. So it’s all easy for me.
Technophobia is in fact the number one issue I have had combat with whole home control systems.
Most people don’t understand a tenth of what a stock Mac or win 7 machine can even do. It’s hard enough for them to simply manage their email and mind their music without getting lost. This is simply because these things were designed by geeks for geeks and tested by geeks. Regardless of what is portrayed in the media, geeks are still a small minority.
Very few of our customers are legitimate geeks. They are Doctors, lawyers, accountants, assorted business owners, but the final decision making often comes down to the real customer and that is “Mom” because in reality its her house, he just visits there when he is not at work. She accommodates him with his room full of his stuff. He acts like its all his when outsiders are around but he knows better, and says stuff like I want that, I will talk with the wife about it tonight.
She doesn’t like the mess of wires and ugly stuff that clashes with her décor and would rather that it all went away someplace that was out of sight for good. In her mind she wants a remote with just four buttons, this one turns everything on and this one turns everything off and this one plays my music and this one is cable TV.
Technophobia has delivered me into several projects over the years where the customer had spent tens of thousands on equipment including some decent controls (you guys are familiar with) that they never used because it was to overwhelming for them.
I understood it. I would not have built the systems the way they did, but it made sense to me because I understood what they were trying to do.
So in order to take the installer out of the systems and put the home owner in the driver seat, we usually install an RTI front end which allows us to conform the system to the personality of the customer rather than the GUI philosophy of the manufacturer.
In every case the customer was very happy with the results.
C4 has their brand stamped on a bunch of third party parts which are bundled together into a "total solution" which is all fine and dandy a lot of companies do that. However, In the long run this didn’t work out so great back when C4 was called "Phast"! Phast, Panja, landmark was also billed as a total solution that unfortunately turned into a total disaster.
I personally don’t trust C4. Because of the past. This company may perhaps go on forever, but I see the same design mentality floating around that camp and I don’t agree with it at all.
With RTI we have 3rd party solutions for everything which we bundle together reliably.
For example Lutron makes one of the best lighting control systems on the market. Ra 2 way works seamlessly with RTI as do several of lutrons other products.
If you remember Phast utilized custom light switches built for them by Lutron. Things went wrong with phast & Lutron walked out on them. Now there are thousands of light switches failing all over the place that have no direct replacement. Could this happen again with C4 as well? I don’t know.
With a Lutron system do I need to say more? Does it really matter if it has an RTI sticker on it? I don’t think Lutron will be going out of business any time soon, and they will fix just about anything they have built under their brand name.
There are also options if you don’t like Lutron, you can use Central lite, or leviton, or Cooper, or Vantage, or Clipsal they are all two way with RTI. I know that you guys can use this stuff for better or worse with other systems as well.
DSC security works great! You can also use GE / HAI
Aprilaire HVAC works great
Multitudes of component manufactures are now partners with RTI. Some manufacturers are writing 2 way drivers for RTI without even being asked.
Sure RTI had a bad spat of remotes dumped on us and I don’t blame anyone for not trusting RTI anymore than I don’t trust C4. But it wasn’t the RTI remotes design that was bad but the company they hired to manufactures some of the parts who failed there. RTI put a lot of effort into replacing those remotes and making good on the screw up. The new generation of remotes appear to be very solid.
I think the biggest remaining issue with RTI now in present tense, Is that they need a couple of lower cost 2 way remotes, to go with the new Xp3 and Xp6 I am sure this will be coming in the future. And when they do price won’t be an issue at all. They also need to hold their cards closer and not announce a ship dates until the product is ready to ship.
But despite what ever problems have come and gone and sans the nay sayers RTI rocks, and it is getting better everyday!