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| Topic: | Control 4 or Prodigy by Crestron This thread has 156 replies. Displaying posts 136 through 150. |
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| Post 136 made on Saturday January 29, 2011 at 01:34 |
RTI Installer Super Member |
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On January 28, 2011 at 18:16, BigMoney said...
Excuse me, I didn't realize I was getting involved in some sort of infantile argument. MY POINT is that if the CI industry as a whole doesn't band-togther to counter the price slashing and low-balling, none of us are going to be able to continue to be profitable in an already profit-less industry. Thoughts? Thanks. I agree with this and I might add that manufacturers better start bringing us "experts" to the round table to help work on solutions that keep us in the black, so that they can stay in business as well. We all know that products like TV's are just give away items. What we need are products that irregardless of brand integrate better at a lower cost to us. There is simply so much crap out there going so many directions with very little cohesiveness. We are left to fend for ourselves with a bunch of bewidered customers who have been spoon fed so many empty promises that they have lost trust in making the big purchase. Its like everyone is waiting for the dust to settle down before they will do anything. Further, the way manufactures are dealing with the sales of thier products reminds me of those old middle ages movies, as you aproach the castle walls there are all of these booths selling all of these wares on both sides of the road. When you get inside the castle walls there is all the same stuff for sale except the customer is not going to buy any of it becuse he has already made his purchase out side the castle, he just wants to rent your cart and have you deliver it to his barn for cheep.
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Never Ignore the Obvious -- H. David Gray |
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| Post 137 made on Saturday January 29, 2011 at 01:42 |
RTI Installer Super Member |
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On January 28, 2011 at 18:56, 39 Cent Stamp said...
There is nothing we can do about it. Remember when Best Buy and the geek squad was going to squeeze us all out of business? They may have squeezed out a few at the low end or those unorganized few larger firms but the rest of us are still here.
I remember back 17 years ago when i first started full time as an installer i would hear the boss and sales guys bitching about mail order and how it was putting us out of business. It didn't. Did it force us to change our business model? You bet. But we are all still here. Then the internet showed up and i heard the same bitching.
If you think Control4 is a dirty word you should head over to CEpro and find the article about Cable/Satellite/Phone/Security companies entering into home automation. If you think your clients expect a lot for a little just wait.. it will get worse real soon. They will drive the consumers expectations about "what it costs" into crazy land.
So yes.. you, me, Alan and Mark and everyone else who participates here is going to lose jobs to other companies. There isn't anything we can do about it. All we can do is continuosly adjust our business model and keep an eye on the market. And dont feel bad. Our industry isnt the only one that has to deal with this.
Think about Block Buster or Kodak. We can wait until someone else takes what we once had or we can adapt and stay ahead of the game. Why didn't someone at blockbuster say "hey lets buy netflix and change our business model" or "redbox is kicking ass lets buy them or give them a run for their money". What the heck happened to Kodak? Why dont the OWN the digital camera market? Those companies got stuck on what was instead of what is and dropped the ball.
The first reality that everyone is going to have to face whether they like it or not is that the manufacturers dont give a damn about your brand. They are not your partner and we dont work for them. Any profit on hardware should be looked upon as a fluke and your business model has to change so that it revolves around labor.
If this is a reality you cant or wont live with then you need to leave this industry now. Your percentages and points and margins and profits are going to belong to amazon and ebay resellers in 5 years.
Second reality is that at some point one of the big boys like Apple or HP is going to "walmart" our industry completely. $10 light switches, $15 tstats and a $99 security system will all communicate with a mac mini wirelessly and AV will be a dedicated appletv in every room. My guess is they are still 10 years out from making this a totally plug n play DIY system like Sonos is today. But it will happen. And between now and then you will lose DAV systems to Sonos and HTPC's. You will lose security jobs to ADT and lighting and climate to them at some point and so on and so forth.
Third and finaly reality is that if you expect to eat in 10 years while being part of this industry you will be wearing a logo from one of the service providers mentioned above or you will have advanced your organization and its offerings so that you can cater to the high end client who still cares about quality.
I remember when it was super rare to see someone with a mobile phone but now everyone has one. Same with plasma tv's. The same will be true with Crestron and Control4 systems. To make that happen the cost has to come down. The difference is that unlike a TV or a cell phone.. its not plug n play. Someone has to engineer and install and support it. Even when there is an apple logo on a "home automation kit" there will still be a need for someone to engineer and install it. Thats where we come in. Those of us who stay in front of the ever changing market anyway. This was well said, you do have your moments
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Never Ignore the Obvious -- H. David Gray |
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| Post 138 made on Saturday January 29, 2011 at 11:24 |
Audible Solutions Super Member |
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This thread has gone slightly off topic but I do not believe the issue is one of bigness. I don't think that ADT, Verizon, Best Buy or Apple are the issue save at the margins. The iPod destroyed CD server sales and iTouch and iPad will destroy touch panel sales. Other than proving that equipment sales are not the path to success Apple is merely creating a revolution--because it is able to sell many more units than any of the products we sell via this channel. It may be a part of the revolution but it's not the real cause of the problem.
In an era of few sales opportunities, if you cannot get face time how can you demonstrate your value added solution is better than a competitors? The fact is that manufacturers have decided that their success is no longer tied to a trained CI. Maybe they are right. What I can tell you is that it is harder to get face time in front of clients. At no time in my career has price been as important a factor as it seems to be now. Someone still needs to install these systems. Since everyone has access to the same gear if you cannot afford to advertise or construe some way to get in front of a client finding a way to differentiate yourself will be the challenge we all face. It's going to be even more of a challenge when unqualified "CIs" offer to install the same Lutron and Crestron systems and clients choose only on the basis of price. Even if they are not the same solutions they will say Crestron and Lutron. You may be offering a centralized lighting solution whereas you competitor a decentralized solution. Yours may be more reliable and more aesthetic. But it's not going to be obviously different and thus price is going to be an issue unless you come up with a strategy to make it less relevant.
Selling you company, Mark, has always been wise. Providing value added service other than installing a lighting system is an other. If you are only selling what manufacturers give you--as is the case with Savant and C4, how are you going to do this? Crestron allows you to offer such differentiation. But you also need to make the effort to provide this differentiation and you need to find a way to make a client aware of it. Being different may not be enough. Providing a value added solution you can sell is required but you're still going to have to overcome the inertia that it's all about price. That any lighting solution, any DA solutions, any remote will offer the same reliability, elegance, feature set and service as the solution your company provides. We are in an era of value. But value may not be the lowest price but it does appear as if clients are making more decisions based on price than previously.
Alan
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"This is a Christian Country,Charlie,founded on Christian values...when you can't put a nativiy scene in front fire house at Christmas time in Nacogdoches Township, something's gone terribly wrong" |
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| Post 139 made on Saturday January 29, 2011 at 11:28 |
KRAZYK Long Time Member |
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On January 28, 2011 at 23:27, motech said...
Right. And for those reasons - apple will be the end of the CI industry. Guess u better start looking for a new job from now. Already have a new job! Thanks for the heads up! Actually, I work a lot with your name except it is spelled Motec.
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KRAZYK
Things you own end up owning you! |
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| Post 140 made on Saturday January 29, 2011 at 12:03 |
kgossen Super Member |
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On January 28, 2011 at 20:34, motech said...
Out of all the companies pushing out industry down - it's not apple.
If anything they are just giving us more items to integrate with. And without Apple, how would we know what apps are appropriate for us? Surely we can't figure this out on our own. I'm just hoping they come out with dimmers and tstats so I know when my lights should be on and what temperature my house should be. Thanks Mr. Jobs, you're swell!
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"Quality isn't expensive, it's Priceless!" |
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| Post 141 made on Sunday January 30, 2011 at 11:07 |
Prime Design Active Member |
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Alan,
I don't sell anything in competition to my clients, I only make design choices and choose from dealers that support that product line. I have supported Crestron far more time than C4, every project is different and requires a unique solution. My own products are simply things I created when I was a dealer. They helped my business and now are availble to others if they have a need.
I am not a one trick pony looking to push one line, there's enough of that already. The biggest problem we face today is eroding margins and our own lack of charging for all our time. We'll come through it at some point but only when we realize a profitable business model that becomes the standard. There will always be lowballers but they are their own worst enemies and will either grow out of it or go away.
Big Money was right, our petty little agruement doesn't move us forward but only feed the bulls*&^ so many have come to enjoy on this sight as a waste of time. Let's get back on track and see if we can't have reasonable discussions with a positve effect.
Mark
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| Post 142 made on Sunday January 30, 2011 at 12:00 |
39 Cent Stamp Elite Member |
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On January 29, 2011 at 12:03, kgossen said...
And without Apple, how would we know what apps are appropriate for us? Surely we can't figure this out on our own. I'm just hoping they come out with dimmers and tstats so I know when my lights should be on and what temperature my house should be.
Thanks Mr. Jobs, you're swell! You liberals need to be told what apps you can have.
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Avid Stamp Collector - I really love 39 Cent Stamps |
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| Post 143 made on Sunday January 30, 2011 at 12:31 |
Audible Solutions Super Member |
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On January 30, 2011 at 11:07, Prime Design said...
Alan,
I don't sell anything in competition to my clients, I only make design choices and choose from dealers that support that product line. I have supported Crestron far more time than C4, every project is different and requires a unique solution. My own products are simply things I created when I was a dealer. They helped my business and now are availble to others if they have a need.
I am not a one trick pony looking to push one line, there's enough of that already. The biggest problem we face today is eroding margins and our own lack of charging for all our time. We'll come through it at some point but only when we realize a profitable business model that becomes the standard. There will always be lowballers but they are their own worst enemies and will either grow out of it or go away. I am a Crestron fan. Yet you may have read some of my criticisms of their current marketing stategy and its impact on this business envoirment. You may also recall that I've also written that what is good for Crestron's business plan may not be good for mine. That doesn't change my opinion that a Crestron system designed and installed by a competant CI firm and programmed by a good programmer does not ultimately provide the client with more value. You think C4 is the right product for a job, so be it. If you are looking to limit the costs on your programming line item and you find its feature set in line with your end goal, so be it. However, when you read the sum total of your posts you seem to boil everything down to price. In this you may have caught the zeitguist as this is what many clients seem to think. Clearly price matters. CI firms need to become more efficient in selling and managing the systems they sell and install. You like to quote your resume. It would lead one to conclude that you do understand what constitutes good practices and bad. I don't see any evidence of this in any of you posts or on your blog. You only seem to focus on price. There is no evidence that any other considerations are factored into the decision. Even if most of this is client driven you're supposed to be the consultant advising him. If he is not listening to you that ought to be in the blog too. Big Money was right, our petty little agruement doesn't move us forward but only feed the bulls*&^ so many have come to enjoy on this sight as a waste of time. Let's get back on track and see if we can't have reasonable discussions with a positve effect.
Mark It's not personal. I don't know you save by what you have written here and on your blog. It is to those opinions and world views that I've commented. Your initial post that iPad would revolutionize CI designs may be proved right but not for the reasons you gave. You focused just on price. Alan
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"This is a Christian Country,Charlie,founded on Christian values...when you can't put a nativiy scene in front fire house at Christmas time in Nacogdoches Township, something's gone terribly wrong" |
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| Post 144 made on Sunday January 30, 2011 at 19:06 |
Peteey3265 Long Time Member |
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Good thread. Rule #1 in our shop is never sharpen your pencil. Tell your client that if they cannot afford your proposed system, that you would gladly re-engineer their proposal using lesser parts and thus lowering the cost. If you are in this business and want to remain in this business, the onus is on you to become a better sales person. Look at the gear your selling, is it dependable, can you get past the learning curve quickly to start profiting, how's the distribution of that line, lots of dealers in your area? These are all important considerations. Control4 is a good product, but if there's 12 guys in my market selling C4, I'd want nothing to do with it. I sell Vantage and RTI, and between these two systems, there's nothing I haven't been able to control. These lines are protected, I make good margin, and I'm the only Vantage dealer in town. Yes, it's expensive, but I continue to sell it and profit from it. My point being, that there are a lot of ways to make money, you just have to be creative. No need to follow the heard.
I don't close every job, but I don't lose many either. When I set up the initial meeting with a client, the first 5-10 minutes is about my resume, experiences, and the product lines and why I choose those product lines. I then go into a lengthy Q&A, gather as many facts as possible and set up the next meeting. Rule #2, never send a bid via email, for obvious reasons. Make the client come to you and give you the opportunity to explain your proposed system. This may piss your client off, but here's the bottom line, you may have spent 2 days putting a system to paper (spreadsheet), you deserve some face time. Ninety five percent of the time my clients will cave and come in. You must sell yourself, your system and your ability to execute the plan. Again, don't sharpen your pencil, re-engineer your system to meet your client's budget and in the process you will make your margins.
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Pete |
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| Post 145 made on Sunday January 30, 2011 at 20:56 |
RADIO RAHIM Advanced Member |
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On January 30, 2011 at 19:06, Peteey3265 said...
Again, don't sharpen your pencil, re-engineer your system to meet your client's budget and in the process you will make your margins. This fits in to what Prime is saying and his Salestoolz software does just what your describing. It allows you to engineer the system to fit your clients budget right in front of them.
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| Post 146 made on Sunday January 30, 2011 at 22:39 |
Prime Design Active Member |
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On January 30, 2011 at 20:56, RADIO RAHIM said...
Again, don't sharpen your pencil, re-engineer your system to meet your client's budget and in the process you will make your margins.
This fits in to what Prime is saying and his Salestoolz software does just what your describing. It allows you to engineer the system to fit your clients budget right in front of them. Thank you for the support, it may take time for some to see that we need to spend less time engineering for free and more time creating budgets and estimates. I just had a furniture manufacturer go through two trades shows in two weeks using Salez Toolz and said it increased sales by 20-30% (increase from 780k to 1.1 mill each trade show, per sales person) by maximizing his and his salespeoples time. The way he put it "slicker than sh$%, we just wrote more orders in less time". We aren't the only business trying to maximize our sales right now. (BTW, way we are now in the app store as of last Monday, Yahoo!) Once we understand that high performance doesn't have to be from scratch every job and it is actually better to sell systems you have perfected and tested to work everytime. Think Bentley or Rolex, years of making every successive model better by building on the last design. Create a price point and engineer systems to match, the custom part can be minor changes or upgrades. I don't fully agree with Stamp since there will always be a place for a higher level of systems integration, some people don't mow their own lawn, work on their own cars or clean their own house. Service will always have a place we just have to make it easy from someone to say yes!
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| Post 147 made on Sunday January 30, 2011 at 23:07 |
39 Cent Stamp Elite Member |
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On January 30, 2011 at 22:39, Prime Design said...
I don't fully agree with Stamp since there will always be a place for a higher level of systems integration, some people don't mow their own lawn, work on their own cars or clean their own house. Service will always have a place we just have to make it easy from someone to say yes! I agree with this 100%. We do 100% high end residential. 1 out of 50 clients care what control system we use or even know what GUI stands for.
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| Post 148 made on Monday January 31, 2011 at 16:23 |
BigMoney Lurking Member |
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I agree with what 39 Cent Stamp said regarding selling the company rather than the hardware. However, for the first time in recorded history (mine), over the last few months, a couple of Custom Builders and a few Residential Architects have referred to Control4 BY NAME! All have stated that they like the product because it is "CHEAP" and doesn't come with the associative "programming headaches"! Therefore, the Builders/Architects/Designers never get "that phone call". It doesn't matter that the project is woefully undersold. The "no headaches" approach will ultimately decide our fate if the Builders/Architects have anything to do with it....
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| Post 149 made on Monday January 31, 2011 at 17:05 |
Prime Design Active Member |
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I know most of the Architects and builders in my market know Lutron and Crestron by name, it's just a matter of who's selling to the specifiers. Control4 has just done a good job marketing lately, it could just as easily have been HAI or Elan showing up as the "affordable" product.
A good salesperson can usually overcome low end products if the project calls for more, or, like the project I'm on give them what they asked for and let them know the restrictions. Not everyone needs the same level of control or puts the same value on our services and products, either walk away or take their money and give them what they paid for.
The most important part is to not keep feeding the "how low can we go?" model a lot of builders are using to close jobs. To survive in this market, we have all made hard choices from who to lay off to should I take this job. Do what is best for your business but an old rule of thumb is it takes five good jobs to make up for one bad one.
Companies can only survive so long undercutting the market, the bads ones will fail and the goods (we hope most of them) will survive. Life isn't fair, but it is fairly consistent.
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| Post 150 made on Tuesday February 1, 2011 at 09:25 |
Audible Solutions Super Member |
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On January 31, 2011 at 16:23, BigMoney said...
All have stated that they like the product because it is "CHEAP" and doesn't come with the associative "programming headaches"! Therefore, the Builders/Architects/Designers never get "that phone call". It doesn't matter that the project is woefully undersold. The "no headaches" approach will ultimately decide our fate if the Builders/Architects have anything to do with it.... A strength of C4 is that it limits what the system can do to a predetermined feature set operating pre-engineered code. That doesn't mean there will be no problems but a defined feature set with tested code will result in fewer issues. When I announced I was unemployed I received some strange emails from integrators with geek genes gone wild. At my last employer they sold 8 different GUIs, on 20 different UIs. I've seen CIs integrate AppleTV without deploying the code in-house first. That is going to result in mistakes and changes to code. Tested, proven code coupled with a defined feature set ought to be our new mantra. Just because you can do anything doesn't mean you should. When you do add a new feature you have to test that device in house. C4's limitations are both an advantage and a disadvantage. While it has a defined feature set it's an attractive feature set. If you don't know if an iPad will work with a specific processor don't deploy it till you do. Everyone has some sense of how something should work. If it works repeatedly why improve it? Audio Request supported iTunes integration but if you hadn't done it before it could be daunting. Don't deploy features you have not done before or without testing in your lab. And when you do put a new feature in use it repeatedly to take advantage of the time you've spent learning and coding it. Value consumers demand devices that essentially work. You may accept a dropped call here or there but cell service works. Your web browser does connect most times to the Internet. The analogy is not perfect because we control so little of the environment in which we operate. You'll read threads here about all manner of manufacturer errors. But what C4 does right is to provide operational code that works. We are often asked to make custom features and you don't always know the best method of implementation at the time. Or you do something that works and the client demands something else. So you code and code and code. Less customization, deployment of tested code on equipment that you are familiar, operating on equipment you are familiar is wise.
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"This is a Christian Country,Charlie,founded on Christian values...when you can't put a nativiy scene in front fire house at Christmas time in Nacogdoches Township, something's gone terribly wrong" |
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